http://www.osnews.com/story/6651/The_Transition_to_Linux_Goes_Through_Windows Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Tue, 07 Jul 2009 01:17:01 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? 7-zip and PDFCreator seem to be windows only programs, other than that, I agree with the selection of programs... Thu, 08 Apr 2004 02:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=57796&pac...

Which version am I supposed to install? Why isn't this mentioned on PDFCreator's home page. Guess that kind of "detail" isn't important? Thu, 08 Apr 2004 03:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Currently, I am using 3 open source apps - Firefox, Thunderbird, and Media Player Classic. (I was using 4 open source apps until last weekend, when Keynote was replaced with WinOrganizer.)
I assume I'll be using more in the future as open source improves on the desktop. The better the apps get, the more people will be interested. I could use more OSS apps now, but don't particularly care for them - eg, I'll take Trillian Pro over Gaim, kthnx.
I have to bring this up, even though I brought it up in the Mozilla thread - if they keep releasing all this software for Windows, in which case I can have access to my good open source apps plus top quality closed source apps, Linux doesn't seem to have much of an advantage outside of politics, servers, and occassional tinkering. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 03:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? quite simply, mozilla on linux SUCKS.
Firebird SUCKS. They're both fine on windows, but in linux there are some nasty bugs that need fixing. I filed a bug report, but apparently it's meant to be broken.
This is the kind of inconsistency a Windows user finds when they try to switch - http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=171132#c26
Bizarre, inexplicable behaviour. OO.org is nicer, but Mozilla shouldn't be recommended simply because a windows user will certainly get a bad taste from it.
Also notice that copy/paste is not a universal ability in Linux, which is further confusing. I tried copying from OO.org into Firefox, and it doesn't work. Why? I don't know.
Copy/paste worked well on every version of Windows from 95 on, but it's obviously harder than it looks if distro makers can't manage it after ten years. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 04:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? That's not a bug, that's a silly and hideous feature request. Middle click to close tabs????!!! Middle click serves its purpose on Linux. The remainder of your comments is loaded with fear, uncertainty and doubt. "Copy and paste don't work on Linux." That's old. A little more creativity is in place. Try harder next time. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 05:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I don't understand how the author lost Microsoft Office when he had to reinstall. Didn't he have an original copy on CD to restore from? Thu, 08 Apr 2004 05:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Yet another diary entry cum article... but the copying and pasting between Linux apps is valid no? I mean, on some instances, it's just not possible. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 05:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I wrote this posting in OpenOffice.org right now and pasted it into Firebird...

Sure, C&P has its issues in the Linux world, but I don't know any case (involving moderately modern applications), where simple text pasting doesn't work. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Here are some ideas:

1) parents bought the computer from someone who got Office with it and kept the CD, while leaving Office on the computer he sold to them (not exactly legal)

2) The computer is a cheapie that came with one of those screwy repair cd's that wipes the hard drive and restores it to its factory condition with everything installed so it didnt come with an Office CD, and as he says: "i needed to reboot the whole thing with a new operating system." He probably replaced 98 with XP and so he couldn't install Office since he didn't have a CD.

3) He lost the Office CD, CD Key, etc...

4) He's a complete moron (I would rule this out considering the pretty intelligible article he wrote)

Personally, I'm going to go with #2 as my theory of choice, since it seems most plausible and fits best with how he described the situation. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Also notice that copy/paste is not a universal ability"

Linux uses Middle Click to paste a selection of text. I believe it's up to the application to implement that feature. Now some people think that Microsoft's way of ctrl+c and ctrl+v are better and such tried to hack in support for this way of doing it. Now if they don't implement the standard way of Middle Click, then it's they're own fault for not going by the standard. Personally I think if we are going to have both, let's make them both a standard, so everyone HAS to implement both. Maybe we should ask Freedesktop.org to decide a standard?

(Sorry if my post ended up more like a rant than anything else, I'm kinda tired, going to sleep now) Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? That's not a bug, that's a silly and hideous feature request. Middle click to close tabs????!!! Middle click serves its purpose on Linux. The remainder of your comments is loaded with fear, uncertainty and doubt. "Copy and paste don't work on Linux." That's old. A little more creativity is in place. Try harder next time.

Geee, isn't that a regular Linux troll answer...

Did you know that in XP I can cut and paste most things, images for instance... or how about tables, or text or images and text and checkboxes and pretty much it all pretty much between any app that would support pictures, checkboxes etc. Has been standard for some years...

Creative? Sure it isn't, that's why you just proven why these obvious things make Linux a third hand choice for desktop (as in if their is regulations for using Windows or OSX in your country).

Don't throw away things as FUD, solve the problem instead and you won't see us ranting Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? There's a simple solution for synchronising the copy and paste buffers in X. Look for an app called autocutsel.

I can even copy and paste between my FreeBSD desktop environment and Windows when I'm using TightVNC.

Before you bash something, please make sure that you've actually tried looking into it more. Maybe there is a simple solution that you didn't know of. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Supposing a user can get past the install, which requires a good knowledge of your hardware. Gentoo is by far one of the more friendly distros especially when it comes to package installation. WTF is dependancy hell? Thu, 08 Apr 2004 07:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Geee, isn't that a regular Linux troll answer...

Did you know that in XP I can cut and paste most things, images for instance... or how about tables, or text or images and text and checkboxes and pretty much it all pretty much between any app that would support pictures, checkboxes etc. Has been standard for some years...

Congratulations


Creative? Sure it isn't, that's why you just proven why these obvious things make Linux a third hand choice for desktop (as in if their is regulations for using Windows or OSX in your country).

It could be a fifth hand choice for all I care.

Don't throw away things as FUD, solve the problem instead and you won't see us ranting

Keep ranting, I'll keep calling FUD when I see it. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Although I agree linux is lacking regarding non-text copy pasting, I must stress that the windows way is broken too. Ever tried to write a paper with Office 2000 on w2k with four people including tables and graphs from excel, pictures from websites and digital cameras and qoutes from pdf-files? My eyes get wet just thinking about it again... Your word-file gets HUGE and formatting becomes pure hell!

You end up agreeing that everything should be paste special "non-formatted text" and every picture /graph should be exported to jpg and imported in Word with the insert> picture> from file. Then one person gets the task of proper formatting using "Styles" and NOT the formatting tool bar! This is exactly what you are supposed to do in linux! But select text > middle-click is much faster than ctrl-c > paste special> "non-formatted text". Actually I think it is a bad thing OOo and others include some of this windows madness, instead of designing something that isn't broken. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This is exactly the way I switched to FLOSS too. First I discovered Mozilla, then I got fed up with the productactivation of MS Office so I tried OO.org and before I knew it I was running GNU/Linux. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? There's a simple solution for synchronising the copy and paste buffers in X. Look for an app called autocutsel.

I can even copy and paste between my FreeBSD desktop environment and Windows when I'm using TightVNC.

Before you bash something, please make sure that you've actually tried looking into it more. Maybe there is a simple solution that you didn't know of.

Impressive stuff... now that I like, how can it be that this software isn't integrated and enabled by default as would be expected?

==> Root

The general GPL attitude... "I don't care and FUD and bla bla bla"... I truly wonder if Linux gets discarded of technical merits or because it's userbase consists of arrogant idiots? Let me guess... you're upset because you think you're l33t and still don't have a proper job and everyone else is wrong while you're right...

Please wake up and smell the coffee... Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? For a nice, convenient selection of the best open-source windows programs, see
http://www.theopencd.org Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? OSS has a real problem: UI design.
It's easy to create cross-platform softs, but the UI.... I tried to find good UI designers, but I failed.

Croos-platform + robust + good UI = Possible long term switch Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Am I the only one who never bothers reading any comments containing the word 'sucks' when it is written in uppercase? I just assume the comment is a troll. Particularly offputting when 'cleverly' misspelt as in M$ WinDOZE SUXXXXXX, LinuXXX SUXXXX etc.
- end of rant -

>> Linux uses Middle Click to paste a selection of text. I believe it's up to the application to implement that feature. Now some people think that Microsoft's way of ctrl+c and ctrl+v are better .....Personally I think if we are going to have both, let's make them both a standard, so everyone HAS to implement both. Maybe we should ask Freedesktop.org to decide a standard? Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I recommend that people also tried The GIMP (recently went 2.0) to replace that (warez?) copy of Photoshop. I don't do much image manupulation but I need a solid program to do it and GIMP has been able to solve my problems. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 11:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I don't know what the difference is between the different 0.8 versions but I'm sticking to 0.7.1 for the minute because 0.8 didn't work when I tried it the other day.

I would add FileZilla (currently undergoing a full rewrite to go cross-platform), Cdex, Azeurus and Videolan to the list as well.

Also Real Alternative which uses Media Player Classic is a must have for anyone who refuses to install the official bloated Real Player. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 11:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Check out Filezilla: http://filezilla.sf.net

It works like you'd expect every FTP program to work, but they don't, and it does. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 11:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Copy and paste is still broken in Linux? The solution is to install a third party app? Linux is ready for the desktop? Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Yes, I agree that using FOSS on Windows will often be the easiest way for people to start moving toward Linux, and that is the reason we started TheOpenCD project. I'd be interested to hear the auothor's view on this FOSS-distro for Windows.

see: http://theopencd.org Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? As far as I know it never was broken, it just works according to standards established before ctrl-C ctrl-V was inflicted on us. See most of the comments already made, or RTFM.

>> Linux is ready for the desktop?

I've been using it for 4 years without any significant problems Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? MS-Windows users might also want to have a look here:
http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Not to bash OpenOffice. (Its on my machine) However, those wanting just a good word processor might also want to consider Abiword. http://www.abisource.com/
I find it to be much quicker than OpenOffice writer. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 12:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Third party app? Why not go whining in a corner of your choice?
Whole system consists of "third party apps". Perhaps you find that out, when you even consider to try out that stuff. Perhaps then you also find out, that c&p works fine, even without that "third party app". surprise, surprise... Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "There's a simple solution for synchronising the copy and paste buffers in X. Look for an app called autocutsel.

I can even copy and paste between my FreeBSD desktop environment and Windows when I'm using TightVNC.

Before you bash something, please make sure that you've actually tried looking into it more. Maybe there is a simple solution that you didn't know of."

Using a third party obscure app is the simple solution
for cut&paste.

And people propose this with a straight face. Furthermore,
we should not bash X and toolkits, because this simple solution exists and we din't knew of it. How lame of us.

Now, let's get back to a read desktop OS. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I might be wrong but I think the reason why GNOME has such poor c&p functinality is because it dosent have a clipboard.

c&p works great in KDE 3.2. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why no one just ports filezilla to Linux. Seriously, I am yet to find a GUI ftp client as good for Linux yet. hint for whoever write gftp. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The whole copy and paste issue is stupid.

Look, if you don't like *nix don't use them. I'm not here to convince anybody. You're entitled to your opinions about any OS, whether you've tried it or not. However, it's pretty stupid to diss something if you haven't tried it long enough to get to know it's strengths and limitations - just keep that in mind.

I use *nix, Windows and Mac OS X and I like all of them. They all have their limitations and sterngths. None of them are perfect. I just try to use them for what they are good at. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Mr "Prefect" writes:


Third party app? Why not go whining in a corner of your
choice?
Whole system consists of "third party apps".


Yep, that's the problem. And those thrid party apps are not integerated, something which is left to the lame benevolence (sp?) of the distribution makers.

"Perhaps then you also find out, that c&p works fine, even without that "third party app". surprise, surprise..."

Probably works fine to you. But the other linux advocate just proposed that third party app as a solution, so it surely does not work fine for him without it.

Maybe you guys should sort it out between you, before you advocate half baked solutions to others.. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Using a third party obscure app is the simple solution
for cut&paste.

And people propose this with a straight face. Furthermore,
we should not bash X and toolkits, because this simple solution exists and we din't knew of it. How lame of us."

Well, I'm not a linux advocate (I'm not even currently using it). I'm just tired of bigots who don't like something because they've never used it. I dislike linux bigots as much as windows bigots and mac os bigots.

If you'd tried X you would have found out that copy & paste mostly just works. For the rare occasions where it doesn't, there's other solutions that can be found by googling. Making such a big deal out of this is just silly. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @ kind_of_fud

I rather like the fact that Linux distributors have "benevolence", even if it is occasionally "lame".

Don't see a lot of benevolence from large software houses who make "read desktop OS". (Is that read-only? - don't see why you need cut and paste then.) Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Yep, that's the problem. And those thrid party apps are not integerated, something which is left to the lame benevolence (sp?) of the distribution makers."

Agreed. There are many things that could be done to make linux more polished. However, like I said, a solution exists, in _this_ particular case, and we're making a big meal out of nothing here.


"Probably works fine to you. But the other linux advocate just proposed that third party app as a solution, so it surely does not work fine for him without it."

I'm no linux advocate.

I originally used autocutsel because I wanted copy and paste functionality beteen my FreeBSD box and my WinXP box. However, autocutsel can also be used to synchronise copy/paste buffers in X if you've having problems with that. Hence I suggested its use.


"Maybe you guys should sort it out between you, before you advocate half baked solutions to others.."

Again.. I'm not here to "advocate" anything. If anything, I would like to advocate a less emotional reaction towards operating systems! Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "People are looking to move from the "bad" Microsoft and expensive software."

You know, I really don't see anyone looking to move from Microsoft. All my friends are quite pleased with Windows. I switch between Windows and Linux, it depends on how I feel that day. Also stating a line like bad and expensive really isn't doing your cause much justice. For a community that believes in choice you guys sure are pushing your one choice on others rather rudely.

Some of the apps you mentioned I like. Mozilla has great products, 7-Zip is pretty neat. PDFCreator I dont use and neither would any of my friends. We just have no reason to write documents for each other. Corporate side I can see it being pretty useful to create PDFs and emailing to different customers/lines of business. I'll have to disagree with OpenOffice tho. I tried the new 1.1.1 version and it just didn't want to open documents correctly.

I'm in agreement with another person here. Its going to be hard for people to switch to Linux if the open source tools are available on Windows too. I've found they actually work better on Windows than on Linux. So if I have the tools available I don't have a reason to switch. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Back in the mists of time, (well early nineties I think) all MS-DOS apps had a different set of cut+paste. There was the function keys one (Wordperfect 5.1?? can't quite remember).

And there was the Insert button. Try the following in Notepad etc - CTRL+Insert copy, SHIFT+Insert paste. I think this was the only standard at the time.

Apple macs had the good thought to make the apple key + C + V work for cut + paste. And they wrote it on the keys! Windows must have copied it in the 2.0->3.1 days. I only wish the 'Win' key would do the same. If you're near a mac, try using the apple key with your thumb - much better place than the CTRL on a standard keyboard for cut + paste.

Pity they didn't copy CTRL Q for app close and CTRL W for document close. Much better than ALT F4! IE + explorer work with CTRL Q though!

Copy + paste is one of the best inventions on computing. It should be up there with the mouse! Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Regardless of how it may perform in linux, (And yes, 7zip *IS* linux native) it crashes five out of ten times you run it in Windows. (Like almost all OSS software) This is what I hate about the OSS community. Hear me out, this isn't meant to be a troll. More like a *plead* to the community itself. If you have read ESR's recent rant at Slashdot or the subsequent (and quite good) rebuttal (featured here a week ago) you will see what I'm talking about. Alot of open source apps are just plain BROKEN. I can't believe I'm even seeing someone suggest 7ZIP of all things as a way to migrate. No matter if it's a good format, or stable... or doesn't corrupt files (which it does) It's OPEN SOURCE DAMNIT. Right? So lets use a shoddy inferior format as a standard because it's OPEN.


Hear me out you will. Open source does not a good format make.
Make the format work flawlessly and seamlessly among other systems
and a good format will you have. Doubt the words I say? Review you
must how the zip standard was made.


Open Office is a great program, I'll give him that... but it does lack some polish. However, it's the best OSS I've seen.

NOTE HERE: The original code for Open Office did not come from OSS. It was a commercial product (StarOffice) before becoming open source.

NOTE FOR OSS PROGRAMMERS: Just being able to DO a thing does not make a program good. If you program something shoddy that barely works just so that support is available in linux for (whatever) it doesn't mean that people other than you and ten of your best linuxen friends will use it. KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Study how the best Windows and MacOS programs are made. LEARN to encorporate these usability standards. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Nice article.

I especially liked the parts about using Mozilla. And I didn't start out being a Mozilla fan until I got this new laptop.

Dell Inspiron 8600 (multi-media bad boy

One of the issues with this laptop is that the screen is really designed to be viewed in 1680X1050, even though it supports 1024x768 just fine. The problem is, Internet Explorer isn't really setup to do rendering of graphics and pictures at this resolution; it pixelates them pretty bad.

Mozilla on the other hand, renders both graphics and pictures crisp and clear as a bell. No pixelation, no ugly rendering; just smooth clear stuff.

And no preferences setup; no tweaks or changes---just smooth "out of the box" use.

OpenOffice works pretty well. There are some rough spots (I've had some Word formatted documents come out a bit skewed) it has no worse bug issues than Microsoft Office does. In fact, I think it handles the Office formats very well.

Even MS Office doesn't handle it's own formats well. Between Office 95, 97, 2000, XP and 2003, there are so many code changes. Office 97 documents and spreadsheets sometimes don't open in XP or 2003 correctly, even though it's Microsoft's own format (I've had a few, and it's silly to tell a user it won't open because this version of MS Office doesn't open this format correctly anymore)

OpenOffice on the other hand, has importers that bring in the document, based on the 97 format directly.

As for the rest, I haven't tried them yet, but I plan to Thu, 08 Apr 2004 15:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Most open source apps have a development version and an older stable version. Most peole however have versionitis and asume that higher version number = better. Not so with FOSS,.

Also I used the original Staroffice on windows in the days before it was bought by Sun and using Openoffice now makes me realise just how crappy it was back then. Do you even remember how horrible it looked, the integrated desktop thing, etc ? Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? My freeBSD workstation never had trouble copying and pasting between all my apps, linux is that behind? just use the middle mouse button! Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The complaints come from the partial implementation of ctrl-c ctrl-v in unix desktops. middle-click works flawlessly but for text only. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:33:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Tim Kosse obviously thinks a cross-platform FileZilla is a good idea because he's started a complete rewrite using the wxwidgets toolkit.

Read how he's going at http://filezilla.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64 Thu, 08 Apr 2004 18:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I like filzip, even though it is Windows only

www.filzip.com


With all these flames remember that changing users habits is 10^6 times easier than changing software or UI behavior.

I love it when Unix Weenies tout 'earlier' as better. This must be the appeal to novelty fallacy in reverse.

My model T starts just fine with the wench in the radiator, and it was around long before those 'key' things...

LOL. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 18:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I meant changing users habits is 10^6 times HARDER.

Sorry, I am at work and the Boss was walking by....JUST KIDDIN! Thu, 08 Apr 2004 18:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Sounds to me that you need to turn off the feature in IE that automatically resizes images to fit on the screen if they're too large. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? For many years I've been trying to convince my wife to stop using WinXP as our primary OS because of viruses and forced upgrades. She has been resistant due to usability and compatibility issues. Her main concerns were:

1) E-mail/web browsing
2) Running windows based games for our 2-year old
3) MS Office compatibility (when sent attachments and such)
4) Flash cards & printers
5) General usability

The following Linux programs/features finally convinced
her we could use Linux as our primary OS:

1) Mozilla (e-mail & browsing) which is free. We were using this in Windows before migrating, so switching to Linux simply required copying the default profile to Linux and changing the paths in the preferences to their Linux counterparts.
2) Win4Lin (MS Office and windows games) which is a $90 download at netraverse.com and allows us to run Win95 in
a window. Their documentation and support is very good.
3) Gentoo Linux (free), which IMHO is the best distro in existence. It is a tweakers paradise and the absolute best distro for learning about how Linux works, yet it is simple to upgrade and maintain using 'emerge'.
4) USB flash card reader and printer support are built into the kernel (free), so I just had to setup desktop shortcuts for the flash card reader and install the HP printer drivers using Getoo's wonderful 'emerge' command.

We have been WinXP free for about a month now, and we're not looking back. Now I'm working on helping her understand how to do what she used to do in Windows in KDE. In the process she's become a Frozen Bubble addict. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? To the guy moaning about third party apps to make cut and paste work, MS requires all sorts of third pary apps to make basic functionality work, that I would just expect in linux. For example:

Being able to unzip an archive of any type, including .zip files;

A good quality firewall;

Virtual Desktops;

PDF viewing.

Linux just provides this out of the box. MS Windows just isn't ready for the desktop really, is it?

Just pointing out how stupid your argument is

Matt Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'd like to see a review of whether or not Windows is ready for the desktop based on the same criteria that is used on Linux.
I've got an extra computer and a copy of Windows XP somewhere, ah crap no that computer isn't fast enough! I'll just leave freeBSD on it for now.
Still sounds like an interesting idea. Anybody wanna jump in on this one with ideas? You can figure out how to contact me. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Being able to unzip an archive of any type, including .zip files;
- XP has zip support built into Explorer

A good quality firewall;
- XP also has a firewall (though barebones )

Virtual Desktops;
- Nvidia drivers have this builtin, not a big feature anyhow

Just pointing out how uninformed your argument is Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If I remember correctly, there was an article like that posted on OSnews some time ago. I'd check the archives. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'll concede that I didn't know that XP had zip support. Good to see that they finally worked that one out.

However, your other two points simply went to proving my argument. The point I was making was it was stupid to say linux was not ready for the desktop because it relied on 3rd party applications for certain functionality - ie cut and paste (which it doesn't anyway, but that's another issue). If we were judging "readiness" on that basis, Windows would fail also. That was my point. I couldn't give a shit what windows has built into it. But I do care when people raise spurious arguments against linux that apply equally to Windows.

Get it?

Matt Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Regardless of how it may perform in linux, (And yes, 7zip *IS* linux native) it crashes five out of ten times you run it in Windows."

You're trolling righ? I've used 7zip for months and it has not borked once. Also there no 7zip version for linux, the developers clearly state that it "works in Windows 95/98/ME/NT/2000/XP and in Linux via Wine program.
http://www.7-zip.org Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? use it all the time, love it. i especially like how it will tell you how much memory is needed for the compression/decompression if you want it to. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? if you need to do archiving and compression on windows _nothing_ comes close to 7z, it's the sanest handling of compression outside the *nix shell(well, and fileroller).

as for those of you who complain about linux GUI clipboard functionality and application UI guildelines, freedesktop.org and http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/ may be of interest to you. Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? about people that use open source software to switch from Windows. I switched from Linux on my primary home machine to Windows XP Pro, I use open source software on Windows everyday. At work I have clients that use Apache and Windows servers and they use other open source software packages on Windows. Lets be honest tho, the attraction to Open Source software is not that it performs better its all about the cost, most Open Source packages are free to aquire and you can install it on as many computers as you like. In this economy from hell that we are dealing with most companies and individuals are looking more in line to save money and to drive down cost and Open Source software is in a position to assist in that and not necessarily to just help customers migrate to Linux but also as a substitute for more expensive proprietary software. Fri, 09 Apr 2004 01:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? on Windows and other proprietary platforms. Fri, 09 Apr 2004 01:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Jesus, there are so many misspellings and grammar mistakes that I can barely read it. Fri, 09 Apr 2004 02:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? about people that use open source software to switch from Windows. I switched from Linux on my primary home machine to Windows XP Pro, I use open source software on Windows everyday. At work I have clients that use Apache and Windows servers and they use other open source software packages on Windows. Lets be honest tho, the attraction to Open Source software is not that it performs better its all about the cost, most Open Source packages are free to aquire and you can install it on as many computers as you like. In this economy from hell that we are dealing with most companies and individuals are looking more in line to save money and to drive down cost and Open Source software is in a position to assist in that and not necessarily to just help customers migrate to Linux but also as a substitute for more expensive proprietary software.

I agree with your comment. One of the major points of OSS is cost. But for many many others its stability and security. Something windows will never provide. Fri, 09 Apr 2004 04:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The writer is bang on!

A month ago I moved from Netscape to Firefox. I liked the Open Source idea, so I moved from Eudora to Thunderbird.

I then began to think about Linux, but the thought of loading it was too scary for words, so I thought, why don't I try some Open Source programs on Windows that are used on Linux.

So, I tracked down OpenOffice.org. So, that was my email, browser and Office suite.

That got me to surfing more and investigatign Linux. But, I wasn't going to load it. Still TOO SCARY! But, then I discovered LiveCDs. I tried SuSE, Knoppix and Mandrake LiveCDs.

So, now I was comfortable with three open source packages on Windows that I could use on Linux. I also established that all my hardware would be recognized on Linux, through the LiveCDs. And I loved the KDE desktop, which I got to play around with via CD.

So, I wiped my Win98 HD and loaded Mandrake 10.0 CE. The plan was to play and tinker on Linux but spend most of my time in XP. In two weeks I've booted back to XP three times for very short periods. Last time was one week ago.

That's all in one month. Today, I use Firefox, KMail (I prefer it to Thunderbird) and Openoffice on Linux.

I agree with the writer. Trying the open source products on Windows reduced the fear. The LiveCDs where the perfect next step. Dual-booting is the third step in leaving Windows behind (although I just keep each OS on a separate HD and plug/unplug if I want to move between them, since I do this so seldomly).

One month later and an OS that looks better than Windows, has far richer features and programs and is completely MS-Free. Can't beat that!

Rory Fri, 09 Apr 2004 04:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Even the most timid user shouldn't be scared to try Linux. It can be completely risk-free.

"... Linux. But, I wasn't going to load it. Still TOO SCARY! But, then I discovered LiveCDs. I tried SuSE, Knoppix and Mandrake LiveCDs. "

Amen. The perfect free test drive, as long as you have access to a CD burner.

If you want to go on to step two, I wouldn't wipe your Windows drive or even repartition. Just add a cheap second hard drive. Most computers have a vacant IDE bay, and hard drives are cheap. A few gigs is plenty for a reasonable Linux install. Just go to Best Buy and get the smallest, cheapest one you see, and use the whole thing for Linux (just be sure you specify the correct HD to use during the install!). I've never used anything but Debian, which will certainly do the job, but I suspect the "easier" distros can detect that you have two HDs and let you choose where to install. Make a boot floppy at first rather than touching your MBR.

You now should be able to decide if you want to go whole hog and ditch Windows. If so, copy any files you want to keep onto the new HD. Do not wipe out you Windows drive until/unless you are really, really sure you don't want it. If you have the slightest doubt, just take the drive out and keep it as a permanent backup. If you need more space, you can stick another new drive in its place. Fri, 09 Apr 2004 19:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Gimp graphic copy and paste into openoffice draw; KDE and fedora.... am i the only one that wants to do this? Thu, 15 Apr 2004 19:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments