http://www.osnews.com/story/8239/Bringing_the_Apple_to_the_Masses_-_Revisited Exploring the Future of Computing en-us Copyright 2001-2009, David Adams adam+nospam@osnews.com Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:20:08 GMT http://www.osnews.com/images/osnews.gif http://www.osnews.com http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If they can sell the eMac for $800 they can thow the same parts in a box without the monitor for $750. That would be good enough for me. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? i think eugenias vision is nice, but it will never happen. Apple is too proud if their own creations, so they continue they product line like a onetrackmind. At least as long old Steve rocks the Apple... I say, they simply don't want a cheap (and headless) machine, they want high-priced nice shiny stuff.

The only chance Apple had, was the cloning era. They couldn't keep the up speed of the cloned machines, so they killed it. So, we get a dumbed-down OS, getting more than 100 "amazing new" features every release, but less bugfixing instead and hardware bound to that OS. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Add $40 and make the base RAM 512mb (put another 256 in 2nd slot). Even an "OS X Lite" performance would greatly benefit; and the initial reaction (showroom or out of box) would be extremely important to increasing market share.
I guess the assumption is IBM could supply these (G4eleron) chips in sufficient quantity -- probably reasonable... Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? No.

Look the eMacs and iMacs. They also ship with 256 MB of RAM. You CAN'T offer more with the "Strawberry" PC than what you would get with the iMac/eMac. If you do, you just killed these two models, and that's not what we are trying to do here.

Besides, Apple always places smaller RAM sizes on its machines on purpose. If you want more RAM, buy more. OSX will run on 256 MBs as far as Apple is concerned. Remember, we try to create a cheap machine here, not to load it with features that cost more money. In that case, go buy an iMac or a G5. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If they did that I would buy one...unfortunately due to the culture at Apple I don't think it will ever happen. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:02:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I don't think I could even build an equivalent x86 machine from scratch for that price. And that's not including labor or software...the price doesn't seem reasonable to me. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:29:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Eugenia, personally I think this could be a way for Apple to get more market share, more mind share, and reconquer some of the luster they have lost.

Two things:

1) At $299 sales price, the margins would be too slim. Apple would even lose money for each CPU sold. So, no go at that price level.

2) 2.5" hard disk. 20GB is good enough (1 platter, 1 head).

Keep this idea alive... it's a good one. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The writer is trying to conjure up her own Reality Distortion Field. Just accept it, Apple is not going to go that way ever... look at the new iMac, they still want to go with the all in one design. If you want all this flexibility you talk about go with the PowerMac.

Now stop it with these stupid articles. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I got a 1.3 GHz AMD Duron PC with 128 MB of RAM and CD-ROM for $199 (all the rest parts were the same, I even got more USB 2.0 ports (6) and Linare Linux Professional on that PC). Add a DVD-ROM instead of a CD-ROM (for $8 more in wholesale), 128 MB more RAM (about $20-25 more) and there you go. This IBM G3 is not any better really than the AMD Duron 1.3 GHz (which has SSE support, so it's on the same league as that G3).

So yeah. Such a Mac could be designed, and Apple could make an extra $60 than a PC maker would do for an equivelant PC. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? > At $299 sales price, the margins would be too slim.

I would go as high as $349 for the Entry model and $499 for the Combo model. But more than that, it would miss the point of the whole operation.

> 2.5" hard disk. 20GB is good enough

No, smaller drives are more expensive. A normal IDE desktop disk is cheaper and with more GBs. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I don't think these articles are stupid at all. If there is a market for this kind of machine, maybe the Reality Distortion Fields will cancel each other out.

I would buy one of these machines in a heartbeat - actually I'd buy a lot of them and outfit my whole family!

I'll note that I'm writing this on my $299, 333Mhz iMac that I bought on ebay and I tried for months to get one this cheap. Most of them get as high as $500 - and there's always a ton of 'em on ebay. There would probably be thousands of instant converts if they make a modern box for this price - people are obviously willing to pay that for a lot less horsepower. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? What about selling separate G4/G5 CPU's and mobo's? Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why would they do that? 99.9% of the people want full solutions. Apple is all about "just works". Besides, buy a Pegasus if you want to tinker. Normal people don't. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I seriously doubt a ppc machine could be built at that price point.

The machine would have to have a x86 chip to be sold at that price. Assuming Apple already has the OS ported as rumored. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Please, not another "need a headless Mac", the cheapskates you're targeting are computer morons, they want a cheap, low cost computer with more software than you can shake a stick at, and 9/10, the reason they choose the PC is because of a misconcieved notion that if they have a Mac, they will be incompatible with work.

Grab an eMac, up the processor to that nice new proposed e700 multi-core from Motorolla, chuck a nice Matrox p650 - IIRC it is Matrox's moderate priced card, chuck 256MB DDR 400 memory, MacOS X + Office 2004, and sell it for $699.

Most of all, PUSH IT, PROMOTE IT! "IT RUNS OFFICE!", "WORK FROM HOME USING A MAC!", these are things that will grab the attention of the cheapskate user; their reaction, "oh, awsome! I get a computer AND a copy of Microsoft Office! I can get one of those awesomely easy to use Mac and be compatible with work!" Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Seriously, this is not Apple's market. They will never do this. They are not a white box maker. They are a "boutique" computer maker, and they sell to a high end market. There really isn't any point them going after the low end market. As long as they're making a profit where they are... Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I can't agree with kaiwai more. Excatly my thoughts put into word.

Besides, the whole "Lite" concept of the article is stupid. Why would you cripple a superb processor and OS just to cut a few bucks of the price. The development and marketing of these will not be justified by the sales. As kawai said, the targeted people (the cheapskates) of these "Lite" versions, will propably buy a PC anyway.

Apple has the right direction. It doesn't need to conqueror anything back or be "brought the the masses". Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? >Why would you cripple a superb processor

The CPU *already exists*. IBM sells it. It is not something that Apple has to cut down. It is already a product. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why would a non-geek buy a mac? How would Apple market it to those guys? With iLife offcourse! So you really can't leave it out of the deal.. That's the whole strategy of Apple, use really good software, to sell their hardware with nice margins on it. It's not to use cheap hardware to sell their software which doesn't have really big margins on it.

Apple would be better of investing money in cheaper and faster production, and transport. It's just plain silly that they can't keep up with demand for their products, so before introducing yet another product, improve the production process. Faster and cheaper. Shave off a few 100$-200$ of the imacs, emacs, ibooks, powerbooks and powermacs, all at the same time. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why do people buy Harley Motorcycles?.You might say: for every single type there is a "better" german,japanese alternative.
Apparantly there is a market for Life Style High End products.
Can't argue over taste.Only cynics know the price of everything but the value of nothing. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? apple will never make a machine like that.
its not their ussnies modell and it simply wont fly with apple.

ok its a nice fantasy but that is all. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Is anyone else sick of these armchair CEO articles?

Please do not comment on it. It will only stir up flame wars and further contribute to this drivel, and that is what the author wants. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I would pay up to 500 UKP or equivalent for a machine equivalent to the G4 450 Mhz - 750 Mhz without monitor. Most people already have a VGA monitor. The 500 UKP inclusive of a copy of OS X and Apple Works + Enhancement Pack from T & B.

With that you are compatible and have a super machine for the average person's computer needs with firewire you can attach camera, external hard disks and do almost anything you can imagine.

So much better than a PC. Better to look at, more reliable, more secure, easy to use and yet have the use of Unix into the bargain - wow what a deal.

Of course one can already do this by buying second-hand. I have done just that. I don't regret it for a minute. Should have done it a long time ago. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? petitioning to Apple? Maybe they will consider it if there're enough buyers. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I hate their television adverts (here in the UK): The New G5 powermac possibly the most..."

macs are made for Home machines. From a management perspective they dont do a single thing better than x86 thus they should promote their usability. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? one.. say your Shuttle like box and bits is put together... the price will be higher then Shuttles as they dont add memory harddrive and a number of other parts... so you will be compeating with this sff market that already have strong players in the field...

two... you say this machine would not compeat with Apples products because the processor is older.... This is a faulse realisation how are you going to market this to a protential customer hey this is ur mac and this is one or two generations ago for todays prices..
Macs already look out dated in mhz specs... (the consumer does not know there can be a difference in mhz because most things are measured and they stay that measurement... one metre will be one metre 1000 years from now if the standard is not changed).

if its on the market and just one person says hey i'll take one instead of a Mac then the two machines are in compertition...

if the consumer has the option to say well maybe i dont need the power of a G4 or G5 i really just like word processing....

like someone else said theres so many better areas for Apple to target reducing their prices if they wanted to...

The best way for Apple to create cheaper products is to let others in on the candy... It will mean a compleat shake up of the Apple market and kill it off from todays view point but if Apple want to take more profits from the x86 markets then they have to be bolder then they are...

which does not leave the question they might not want to take on x86 as they are happy with the pie they have baked. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The only way Apple will breakout is if they go in direct compertition to MS....

How much money did MS pay into Apple and two that means no more MS Office pie for Apple..

And Apple are and have been two scared of compeating with MS for decades..

....as one would most probably be killed off...... Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "petitioning to Apple? Maybe they will consider it if there're enough buyers"

there already exists one petition
http://www.petitiononline.com/MacOSx86/petition.html Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I just signed it, there're only 320 signatures; not enough. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I know, let's get Mercedes to offer us a car at the price of a Skoda while we're at it.

Has it ever occurred to you that Jobs/Apple may not need to keep increasing market share? They have plenty of money in the bank, unlike many companies in IT.

And what is market share anyway? I have a couple of Wintels and Lintels. I keep using my iBook - here, Apple has 99% use (I only use the other butt-ugly machines to check the odd web-site) and only 20% market share. How many other Win/lintels are just lying around doing nothing? Market share is a concept developed by marketing drones and bean counters to justify their sorry existence.

People will always buy Mercedes/BMW (etc.) not because they're cheap, but because they are expensive, high quality products. I know my Mac costs more, but it's a pleasure to use. Call me elitist if you will, but I'm certainly not a pleb.

Cheers Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Only cynics know the price of everything but the value of nothing"

s/cynic/moron/g Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "I would pay up to 500 UKP or equivalent for a machine equivalent to the G4 450 Mhz - 750 Mhz without monitor. Most people already have a VGA monitor. The 500 UKP inclusive of a copy of OS X and Apple Works + Enhancement Pack from T & B."

What's UKP supposed to mean, Ukranian somewthing? Nope that's UAH.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/translation/currencies/entable1.htm

When using 3 letters currency abreviations don't invent your own but use ISO-4217 so we don't need to read your mind. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Completely agree.

Jusy go into the Australian Tax Office, they all run Windows XP, but none of the processing is done on the desktop. Is that desktop really being used? nope.

Go into any company, and you'd be hard pressed to find computers actually being used to their full potential, so the claim that there Apple use is in the minority is short sited at best.

As for the marketshare, Apple sells desktop systems than IBM does, and yet, does IBM give up? nope. IBM sells considerably less systems than HP and Dell, do they give up? nope. IBM has found their niche, just as Apple has found their niche. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I would buy the Strawberry Mac at that price, no doubt.

Add $40 and make the base RAM 512mb

I think we should leave 256, but obviously everybody would upgrade the same day to at least 512. I run 1GB RAM on my computer which has powerfull graphic design software and several programs running at the same time.

Of course Apple has a niche of power users, but hey, they could just keep these professional customers + open to domestic market, they wouldn't loose their professional market, but still sell more and create more brand recognition among the masses.

With this product of "attention", people would be more eager to buy later on a PowerPC. New customers would start buying the entry product at 300 bucks, and a year later they would buy an iMac. Why not?

More and more people could afford a Mac, and more and more wealthy people or professionals would know about tha Mac, and would buy a PowerPC later on.

Makes sense to me. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm assuming when the guy used UKP, he means UK Pound as there are many different countries that use the pound for their unit of currency. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? That computer would be everything Apple is against. It leaves out much needed functionality out of the box. The best part about buying a Mac is what you can do with it right after opening it up.

No firewire and no iLife are the worst ideas. Add those two things back in to the mix and maybe it wouldn't be so bad. A switcher should get that wow feeling out of the box with what they can do with no additional software needed.

On the other hand this would be a good machine for Apple to sell to businesses Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Genesi published this picture of the new Pegasos a couple of weeks ago:

http://images.genesi.lu/pegasosnew.jpg

The only problem is the cost. I bought my G3 Pegasos for ~$350 when the G3 Pegasos II was still on sale. An inexpensive machine could be assembled with these components: Case w/PS $30.00, Cables $5.00, Memory $40.00, Graphics Card $50.00 (ATI 9200SE), Hard Drive $50.00, DVD/CD R/W $50.00, Keyboard and mouse $30.00. That is $605.00. Thanks to the SmartFirmware on the Pegasos you could just use a keyboard and mouse you have so say $575 (and an existing monitor too). The G3 runs like a champ. I have a second Pegasos I use as a webserver. Also G3 and works great ( Machine: Pegasos, OS: Debian GNU Linux, CPU: PowerPC, RAM: 512 MB, Database: MySQL Server, Web Server: Apache, Database Size: 1GB). Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why not sell Apple PowerPC motherboards ? If Apple made ATX-form PowerPC motherboards (with proprietary BIOS, etc, etc to not permit cloning), independent manufacturers could use standard (and cheap) PC cases to mount cheap computers. These motherboards could use standard PC parts, like AGP video adapters, PCI cards, etc.

If Intel makes motherboards (of excellent quality), why Apple cannot do the same ? Apple would remain selling hadware.

While apple remain with your elitist actitude they will remain with a little niche of market ?

Sorry for my bad english. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Why would they do that? 99.9% of the people want full solutions. Apple is all about "just works". Besides, buy a Pegasus if you want to tinker. Normal people don't."

Sorry, but this is american-only mentality. In developing countries everybody uses "grey" mounted PCs. If the user cannot mount the computer itself, some friend or little resellers can mount for him. We also don't have money to buy a new machine every 3 years like americans. We generally make incremental upgrades, replacing processors, motherboards, video adapters, etc.

In fact many tech people in my country earn money to survive going to client's home to mount or fix computers.

If Apple remains elitist IBM can take your market selling PoerPC-based motherboards. In fact, IBM will make PowerPC computers to rum exclusively linux. Why Apple cannot sell PowerPC motherboards like Pegasus ?

The design of Apple computers is beatifull to art museums. People need cheap, upgradeable and flexible computers. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? What does the s and g stand for in s/cynic/moron/g? Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? it's a regular expression, used in vi and with the command line sed program. s means substitute, and g means global, i.e. over the entire line, or in this casee, comment. So the output of this command

echo hello my name is azazel, hello | sed 's/hello/goodbye/g'

would be

goodbye my name is azazel, goodbye

without the g it would be

goodbye my name is azazel, hello

short answer is it's unix geek speak. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I know someone who owns a kickboxing Gym. He charges 30%-40% more than all the other schools in the country. He is making good money and his studens are very happy there.

His prices alianate a huge group of potential stundents. His response is that there a plenty of schools that look after people looking for cheap lessons. He is targetting people willing to spend more and getting the value for that money. His business is very successfull though undoubtedly small in terms of total martial arts market. Indeed it is probably the most succesful school in these parts.

Apple doens't want nor need people after cheap computers. They never in their entire history wanted nor needed them. why should they start now. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice for them to make cheaper machines !! I'm just saying it is marketed as and perceived to be a premium product. Why change that at the risk of compromising your brand (regardless of if you had it under a different brand and subsiduary).

Also, IMHO the machines proposed are way too crippled to be much fun. It would be like teasing people for money. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:15:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? must have slipped under my radar but are you refering to the pegasosPPC stuff from ibm? hmm, maybe if it got out on the general market i would be interested. atleast it gives me the oportunity to try out a ppc with the right linux distro Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? it was not from ibm, it just refreneced as a solution on ibm's pages... Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:19:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Pegasos is everywhere on IBM

http://www.developer.ibm.com/solutions/isv/igssg.nsf/list/bycompany...

http://www-1.ibm.com/technology/power/newsletter/august2004/article...

...and Freescale too:

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=018rH3...

This ia a good idea! Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? http://solutions.mysql.com/other/hardware/?item=6

...and there and there:

http://www.pegasos-au.com/

http://www.pegasos-ppc.be/pegasosppc/

http://pegasos.jinak.cz/

http://www.pegasos-fi.com/

http://www.pegasosppc.fr/

http://www.pegasos-de.de/

http://www.pegasosforum.de/

http://www.amigasympan.gr/pegasos/

http://www.pegasos.hu/

http://www.pegasos-italia.com/

http://pegasos.vkt.lt/

http://www.pegasos.pl/

http://www.pegasos.org.ru/

http://www.clubbyte.com/pegasos/

http://www.pegasos-suisse.com/

http://pegasos.amiga-klub.si/

http://www.pegasos.org/

http://www.pegasos-tr.com/

http://www.pegasos.co.uk/

...and these too:

http://www.pegasosppc.com/arabia/

http://www.morphos-news.de/beta2help/

http://pegasos.innoidea.hu/

http://www.club.morphos.pl/

Do we leave out any!? :-D Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Just remembered the whole digital hub-thing doesn't work on G3 computers..

Sell a mac without iLife? You're crazy.. a Mac that doesn't ship with iTunes, for example? Pffft...

What happens when you plug in a DigiCam.. "Please go to Apple's site to download the free version of iPhoto"

Way to cut costs.. *shakes head..

Bottom line.. PC's aren't that cheap. They're really not. PC users want tons of software and they want to play games. Playing games means getting a 1400-2000 computer.

This is breakeven at best market...

PS. Does Panther run in G3? God that would be slow.. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? http://www.pegasos-czech.com/

http://pegasos.amiga-klub.si/

http://www.morphos-news.de/

http://www.morphos-news.de/beta2help/ Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Apple don't work like this, they sell relatively few machines but make a relatively big profit on them.

HP do it the other way around, they sell masses of computers but make very little profit on them.

I'd like to see them do something like this but I think it would cannabalise their higher machines so much it'd end up loseing them money.

What they could do is wait until everything else is using the G5 *then* release something like this but not have it directly associated with Apple, have a separate company and brand for it. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...shame it's never going to happen. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? apple needs to address the lower end of the market but not in this way.

this strategy would canibalize a lot of other sales and that is too risky. Furthermore, there is no evidence that suggests that Apple (not someone else but apple) could sell more computers at $299 then at $499, or $799 so why go with such a low price.

It is best for apple to continue to do what they are doing.

* increase value of platform via OS X and peripherals (ipod)
* go after higher margin markets (enterprise, small biz, research)
* include computing power in next gen iPods or other consumer device and keep scaling up in capabilities.
* gradually reduce pricing across the boards
* introduce a single processor pro machine for $999 (later)
* Introduce this eugenia machines for circa $500-600 (later)

apple lost the pc race. they can still win the next series is they try and that series consists of changing the nature of computing, which is happening. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This isn't intended as flamebait but Apple is simply irrelevant. Since 1984 Apple has approximately halved in real capitalisation (accounting for inflation) and gone from 20% market share to perhaps Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This isn't intended as flamebait but Apple is simply irrelevant. Since 1984 Apple has approximately halved in real capitalisation (accounting for inflation) and gone from 20% market share to perhaps Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I would certainly buy one without any hesitation...

Not the least because I would like to try a cheap apple box before buying a the real thing. Ppl brag about os x but I am very fond of my Dell laptop w/ Fedora Core 2 Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? > I say, they simply don't want a cheap (and headless) machine, they want high-priced nice shiny stuff.

>Please, not another "need a headless Mac", the cheapskates you're targeting are computer morons,

id be quite happy with an _expensive_ headless mac (as long as it was small and silent). like someone else here said, put an eMac into a Cube case without the monitor an id gladly pay the same price. better yet, put a base model G5 iMac into a Cube case without any monitor and id pay the same price. yes, i'd gladly pay $1300ish for a G5 Cube. i dont even need a kick ass graphics card (those unfortunately often have on card fans).

i own a 2Ghz G5 Powermac. love it except for its size and the 9800 Pro fan (ugh i never would have upgraded if i knew there was an on card fan)

now, i understand that not many people are as insane about size and noise as i am, but there are many. they are called 'city dwellers' who dont have a den, office, or basement. people who are lucky to have a second bedroom to put computers into. thats why anything that sells in tokyo has to be the size of a thimble even if it costs 8 times as much.

also, you cant tell me that steve cant at least cut the price of that model to $1000. perhaps as low as $800. at that price, id get 2. so wanting a headless mac doesnt make me a cheapskate. i just want that form factor. (btw i agree with steve that expandability for home users isnt that important. but it would be nice to be able to upgrade existing parts.)

on the other hand, to all the people who think that apples stuff is too expensive, there are many many people to whom money is not the limiting factor. look at all the folks who drop $300-$500 on a device that does nothing but play music. double that for a full computer is nothing.

there are also many people who realize that their time is worth money. building their own machine is simply too expensive when their own time is factored in. for alot of people, 4 hours building a machine is equivalent to $400-$1200. and it would take most of these people way more than 4 hours. its more efficient to bill a client an extra hour or two and buy prebuilt. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well Apple don't actually make hardware. Everything in a Apple computer except the motherboard, case + CPU is a generic PC product. IBM make the CPUs and the motherboards are made in the same Chinese factories as cheap OEM products.

In Australia they used to sell and service a p.o.s Korean 4x4 called the Ssanyong Musso through Mercedes Benz dealers. It was powered by a license-built version of an obsolete MB engine. The deluded owners used to think it was a MB because it said 'powered by Mercedes Benz' on the tailgate. Some even placed MB badges on their vehicles. Ssanyong owners were very dismayed when the company was taken over by Hyundai and they had to take their vehicles to Hyundai dealers to be serviced.

To use an automotive analogy Apples are Hyundais styled and sold by Alfa Romeo. They then went to the trouble of fitting an engine that requires avgas just to make things a little more interesting and a lot more inconvenient. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? OS X is a decent OS, but nothing shocking. Its overhyped.

It has some nice graphical tricks up it's sleeve and its solidly put together, but for a person not afraid to tinker and do stuff on his own, OS X doesn't offer significantly more than the next really Free Unix-workalike OS.

Apple Mac is a status symbol. You buy it for it's image, not because it is a totally superior platform. Apple produces decent wares, but it is not without worthy competition.

If you need a machine that impresses and makes people go Oooh and Aaaah, an Apple fits the bill. If you just need a machine that does what it has to do, x86 is more than up to the task. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? One thought I had the other day was, why not a uniprocessor power mac? I mean, here in Aus, the powermacs start at $3.3k. That's just too damn expensive.. there's no midrange really. How about dropping a 2-2.5GHz G5 into a powermac case, with 512MB RAM, 200GB SATA, and NVIDIA 5900 or 6800GT, and sell it for $2.5k (Australian). It starts to look a bit more reasonable. That won't cannibalise the iMac market, because the iMac includes a screen... and you pay for the small form factor and design of the iMac. I'm talking about an ordinary powermac case, but just with a single CPU, no PCI-X, etc...

There is definitely a gap in apple's lineup. But el cheapo, crippled boxes aren't it. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:20:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Worked at major pc retailer before. MAC buyers are either
1. Owned a MAC before
2. computer geek

people who buy cheapo machines wants XP. To them PC = XP. they won't venture into MAC territory just because it's cheap Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'll chalk my opinion up here. I think its a great idea to offer entry level MACS, especially in the XPC form factor. If Apple did this, their OS and equipment would reach much deaper market penetration and they wouldn't be able to keep these things in stock.

Great idea Eugenia Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? PS. Does Panther run in G3? God that would be slow.>>

Panther's faster on a G3 than Jaguar was.

I have an iMac 350/320 with a slow ass 4400rpm harddrive that I use as my back up/test box.

When I put Panther on it, I stopwatched the boot to the login screen time at 50 seconds.

It took my dual 867/1.25 gigs of ram, 7200rpm harddrive Powermac 70 seconds to boot to the login screen in 10.2.8.

I also have an iBook 600/640 that's had OS X on it from 10.1 and 10.3 is downright snappy on it. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This is not intended to be a joke.

If OSNews pays me us$10.- for each news that I read in its site, in about a week I´ll be able to buy my Double G5, 2.5 MHZ, dual 23" monitor dreammachine. Next day, I´ll buy my 40GB iPod and in the next morning Office (just to let BG be happy, I´ll keep it in the wrapped box.) So start paying now, please! Also, add us$ for each comment, please.

Why "everybody" is trying to "tell Apple" how to do business? Business (at least in capitalism) usually involve decisions and risks. And a vision.

Why don´t you ask BMW to build a us$5.000.- M4? (As a mather of facts, they own the Mni Cooper if I not wrong.)

I live in an underdevelopment country, Argentina in particular (Do you hear about our debt default?) So Macs cost much more, in real bucks (transport, customs, etc. 60% up Apple store prices) than in US. So we have to make more thorougth decisions: Mac cost more (see Linux Insider review) but you produce a lor more value on them.

For me, the most important part is the "productivity" factor, so I have time to get new jobs (well, usually, I had to use this time to try to get paid, but my country is not your.)

So, the proposal is: Let Apple do its business as they like, and risk their jobs.

And pay us, readers, for reading your site! Or should I let you do your job at your own risc?

Bye

p.s.: You do a magnificent job, Eugenia. Thanks. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'd bring back the LC Pizza box form factor and the LC name.

Processor: The low power g4 chips used in laptops @1.24ghz
Ram: 256mb, maxes out at 1gb
Video: ATI Radeon 9000 with 32mb ram (64 as an option) but on the mobo so not upgradable. (This is not an el-cheapo gamer box!). Standard DV plug.
HD: 120gb IDE ATA 133
Optical drive: Slot load Combo drive. (DVD burner not an option.)
Ports: USB 2.0 and Firewire 400.

OS: "OS X Lite" suggests crippled functionality. I would just have a special "OS X for LC" package. No Appleworks*, Omni Products, or IE. Of the iLife suite only iTunes and iPhoto.

Cost $450.

---

*Unless you were buying for a school district. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? People will buy the cheap version and want to upgrade. They'll have to hope Apple continues the cheap line or plunk down a chunk of change on the new G5's. The biggest hurdle Apple has to adoption is the hardware cost. I can't build my own Apple system nor can I simply upgrade my current Mac by keeping the enclosure and adding a new motherboard and CPU. If I want the new G5, I have to figure out what to do with my older G4 or G3. In the PC world, I could slap a newer P4 motherboard into my old Gateway Pentium-66 system with little trouble and It would work just fine. Try putting the new dual 2.5GHz G5 setup in the Beige PowerPC or the blue and white G3 boxes, assuming you could simply buy the new motherboard and keep any internal peripherals you had, not that Apple was really big on add-in cards. You bought the box and it contained everything you needed for the most part. Third Party vendors could offer turn key solutions (AVID for example) if there were special exceptions to the above. Apple's not going to reach a critical mass of switchers until they switch the way to build their computers and I have a better chance of winning the lottery then Apple changing the way they do business. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:43:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "People always talk about Apple being the BMW of the computer industry. The better analogy is that BMW is the Alienware of the automotive industry(BMWs are simply a high quality version of a generic vehicle type). In PCs cost and compatiblity are the only important criteria."

I don't think so: Alianware is the "BMW M5" (sporting turbo motor car) of the computer industry, but Apple is the "BMW 530xd" (4x4 biturbo diesel motor car) of the computer industry. If you want a car only to play buy an M5 (almost unusable for day-by-day use), but if you want a secure powerful cool car to play and for day-by-day use buy a 530xd and you'll have all you can want from a car: great speed, strong acceleration and MANY NEWTONMETERS to grab the road like a PANTHER (or TIGER, in future)!!! :-P

And the USA market share of Apple is 3,8%, about Gartner (yes, THAT Gartner), not only 3%. If you really want, next time turn UP the percentile (4%), not down. Please.

PS If you really want an alternative PowerPC mobo buy an AmigaOne. Belive me, the PegasOS is a... Sorry, but there aren't words I can use freely. :-D Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? damn lady. you have WAAAAAAAY too much time on your hands! get a life! Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If I were Apple, I would release "Mac OS X Home Edition" for the upcoming XboX2 which is based on PowerPC architecture. Seroiusly. That would not cannibalize Apple's market, but would allow students and such to get accustomed to Apple, and later buy real macs. If they crippled it down enough they perhaps could even persuade Microsoft... (I hope it will happen anyway. If not by Apple themselves, then by some hackers who do it via emulation...) Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:07:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "damn lady. you have WAAAAAAAY too much time on your hands! get a life!"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! X-D

PS JohnOne listens KoRn - Got The Life - Follow The Leader Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:10:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? i think its a rather interesting idea. the mac notebooks are really popular because they are competetive with the pc notebooks. however the low end mac(emac) cost atleast 799. For 300usd i'd probably recommend it. the mac is famous for its ease of use and how stuff just works(cant vouch for it though). I think it be great(less people calling me to troubleshoot ). What probably is going to be achieved by this is getting mind share? most users identify with the operating system and how it feels not what hardware is running underneath. This probably also means that mac would want to split up their hardware/software into different companies though. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Sorry about that UK Pounds. Sterling. GBP. Call it waht you will. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Well Apple don't actually make hardware. Everything in a Apple computer except the motherboard, case + CPU is a generic PC product. IBM make the CPUs and the motherboards are made in the same Chinese factories as cheap OEM products.

What utter load of crap. Apple makes hardware. They desgin thier motherboards, every thing inside is custom. No PC has a round mother board.

What you refer to as cheap chinese OEM is called a JDM model of development, where Apple provides the desgin and other manufactures make the board to Spec. Almost every one does this.

Just because a pair of levis jeans and a pair of Armani pants use a YKK zipper or a X brand thread doesn't make a Armani any less designer wear.

No manufacturer can make every diode, ASIC, IC and PCB from scratch and also make a profit.

Yes Apple makes hardware it doesn't manufacture them. Don't knock standard industry practices becuase you are ignorant. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @ JohnOne (IP: ---.25-151.libero.it)

PS If you really want an alternative PowerPC mobo buy an AmigaOne. Belive me, the PegasOS is a... Sorry, but there aren't words I can use freely. :-D

The Pegasos is the only solution for Amigans and users of alternative CPUs unlike the AmigaOne. MAI still can't figure out how to get it's ArticiaS chipset to work right in Linux even though they invented the damn thing.

Also remember the AmigaOne's ArticiaS chipset still hasn't been proven it's not defective. And Amigans are waiting for Ultra DMA 5 speeds on their HDs and Ultra DMA 2 speeds on their DVD-ROMs without data loss.

Don't troll, john. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Wow, this is an utopistic view, but it's damn good! :-D
Really, it's the first good thing about Apple from a OSNews reader I have read since ever, but I prefer "Mac OS X-2-BOX" as name. Ghghghgh! X-D

Do you imagine? A black box with a green X over a silver Apple logo and the name "Apple Mac OS X-2-BOX 10.4 Tiger" with the slogan "The Power of a true Mac within your XBOX2 console".

Eh... How beautiful the dreams are... :-) Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I really like your ideas. It made me think about an idea I had for Windows I think would work really good here.

What I was thinking was a home network setup based around modular servers and clients. Basically, the servers weren't typical boxes, but dual or quad processor net appliances using a client to log into, install apps, and mangage the server with. With the purchase of the server, you get 5 licences to install the client software on the client machines (cheap pc's or cheap MS manufactured equipment). The server acts as a apps server, email server, firewall and access point for the clients, plus other functions. None of this is new, but using this concept as a commercial product for home use is. And it's something that is needed, as in a lot of homes that I know, it's no longer just the pc in the living room and maybe in the kid's room. In my house, I have five pc's running now, not just one or two.

But for Apple, I can see them making a high quality net applicance like server, your 'strawberries' that are fully capable clients, and combine them into a sweet home product.

Your biggest expense will be the server, $2-5k depending on options. But you get your value back in the strawberries which are only $200-400. They can do all the basic stuff onboard, including video processing, but a lot of the processing can be moved off board to the server using well tweaked giga-net.

Some of the advantages is the ease of developement. As servers are upgraded and the APIs change, the nature of the server means that clients don't need to change in order to take advantage of the new capablities of the servers. You could upgrade every machine in your house by simply popping in a new server for 2k. That would be really inviting for home users as the pace of outdated technology is always cause for people whine.

And I could see who this could be upgraded to SMB use as well. Have special connecters for one server to hook directly into another server and violia, you have instant clustering. Also have it so that if a client goes inactive, the server can take over the client and add it to the cluster for more processing power. You could in effect, with a couple of servers and their clients, make a clustered supercomputer from SMBs based on inactive clients in a seti@home server-client model.

Anyways, I have a lot more to say about this subject, but I will leave it here for now.

But I hope you get the gist of what I was suggesting. I don't see how MS could do this unless they alienated the PC industry. But since Apple is the way Apple is, they have complete control over all the hardware and software. With that much control, I think with enough R&D they could have plug n play equipment such as was described. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If you think this is a good idea buy old, non-functional Macs, take out the ROMs and use them to build machines that you can sell for this price. See how fast you can get rich. Good luck.

I think Apple's market share has little to do with price. Much more to do with the various open and closed standards used in computers and with Apple's advertising.

Personally, I don't think this kind of machine would be useful. Apple could expand their product line but this is not a useful direction.

Actually, Apple seems to be doing much better in education this year. Just goes to show they can improve market share when they try hard.

If you really want a low cost Mac shop for a used one or claim an education discount.

Finally, I think OS X is a great OS. It is fast, very reliable and very secure. I use it because I it is a great tool for accomplishing my computer related tasks. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Gosh, I'm already an Apple snob feeling offended by the design of the thing! I never knew it would come so soon.

Honestly, this spells disaster. The return to USB 1.1, Mac OS X and G4 "Lite" and the absence of a flagship Apple product, iLife, just exudes "cheapness", not "economy". I understand perfectly the desire of having a headless white-box-style apple machine, but such a machine would be out of line with the rest of Apple's products. Part of their appeal lies in the fact that everything they do is gorgeous and fits well together. Your user experience is consistent across the board: think of the poor slob who will buy the economy model, and will realize that his machine sucks and cannot get even with the rest of Apple products because it is crippled? Bang! You've destroyed Apple's image. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "The Pegasos is the only solution for Amigans and users of alternative CPUs unlike the AmigaOne. MAI still can't figure out how to get it's ArticiaS chipset to work right in Linux even though they invented the damn thing."

First, there is a patch for LinuxPPC from MAI that resolve all the problems: there was a lack of support from the "very cool" Linux community (the same that cracks MS codec and so it helps MS to expand its presence on the multimedia scene), not real problems.

Second, PegasOS II uses a chipset from Marvell that DOESN'T provide AGP support. AGP support on PegasOS II is only 1x and it is an hack that TURN DOWN the power of an AGP card (and many recent powerful AGP cards don't support AGP 1x today). In fact, an "old" complete PegasOS system (featuring your hated ArticiaS chipset) is more global powerful than a new complete PegasOS II system, even if the this last one has DDR-RAM (that is only 266MHz and the chipset has serius problems with many of the most used DDR modules).

Don't troll, Ronald. :-) Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Ship a slow stripped down Mac to be cost-competitive with fast loaded PCs.

OKAY DOKE. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:54:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? There are Macs that compete with the low-end PC's already.

Take a _HARD_ look at the $699 computers available at WalMart. Look at the print on the box: "Build with Refurbished parts."

Give a Mac dealer a call, and ask about "Certified Used" and "Refurbished" Macs.

The difference between the Walmart $599 and $699 specials and the "Refurb" Macs is that Apple doesn't hide behind fine print.

-Targhan Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? i have a similar plan in my head, but useing linux and building multimedia boxes. attach to tv and you can record shows, watch movies either of the net of dvds++, play games and then have a nice storage server that you can use as a information hub. hell maybe one could set up small hnadheld units so that you could sync with a sentral database in the server. have wifi enabled tablets that you can set on a table or hang on a wall en use it to watch movies, surf or just use it as a kind of advanced picture frame and mesasage board. the only problem is power tho. current laptop battery tech isnt as good is one would like it to be for use like this... Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? marketing said: '...macs are made for Home machines. From a management perspective they dont do a single thing better than x86 thus they should promote their usability.'

Heaven help us from fools likje marketing! Macs!, only home machines?!? Obviously homes like the US Army, US Navy, NASA, Gentech, and countless others don't know what they're doing.

And as for 'they dont do a single thing better than x86' you're quite correct -

Macs aren't as good at getting viruses, worms, trojan horses (72,000 at latest count for PCs, 0 for OS X).

Macs aren't as good at letting anyone have access to your computer via the internet or other networks.

Macs aren't as good at keeping support costs in check. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Just won't happen. Apple is already making "cheap BMWs" via the eMac and the cheaper Powerbooks. The BMW analogy holds up pretty well: its some kind of uniqueness other cars don't have except for replicas, but it ain't mandatory or so for everyone since for many the price ain't worth it, or they can't pay it. Also, its not as if BMW/Apple actually invented _all_ those features which make it so "cool".

In short, this just doesn't fall in Apple's or BMW's business model. So why bring it up? a 'what if...' like this just doesn't make sense. If you really want a PPC, then wait a little while because with Motorola and IBM who might start market Pegasos/MorphOS as desktop OS, it might as well become something serious. Far more interesting IMO.

And you if you say "call me elitist, i'm not a pleb" you're an idiot of an elitist. Buying something just because others don't or can't is oh-so ignorant. In the serious world, people buy something because they see a need of doing so. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? One of the main attractions of the Mac is that everything just works. Plug in a digital camera, it automatically gets mounted on the desktop and iPhoto gets launched. Insert a DVD, and it starts to play. Removing the iLife apps will break that experience for the users.

Having a lite version of OS X is going to be a nightmare for Apple to maintain and for software developers to target. Microsoft can get away with it because they are a huge company, with billions of US$ at its disposal. Apple on the other hand is a lot smaller. Having to maintain three OS lines (OS X, OS X Lite, OS X Server) may be too much for them.

Software developers will have a harder time too. Who do you cater for? OS X Lite might not have the necessary libraries their apps require. What then? Do they use OS X lite as the lowest common denominator? That would mean that the extra features in regular OS X will not be used. Either that or they will need to develop two lines, one for OS X regular and another for OS X lite. Development costs will soar.

Macs are fine the way they are. If their prices came down by about 10%, that would be real sweet. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? All I hear is that 'people buy PCs because they're cheaper'. [I'll leave the difference between 'cheaper' vs. 'less expensive' for another forum]

I will state this unequivocally, "Macs cost the same or less that 'comparably configured' PCs regardless of price point.

Don't believe me? Go here and see for yourself - http://systemshootouts.org/ Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? They should try to compete with Dell, the bottom end and charge $400-450 for their cheap machine. And since they're apple, they could reasonably charge $100 more, just for being an Apple.

iMac can't sell for $1000. They probably cost Apple $1000, once the 1 year warranty costs are thrown in along with software.
Maybe not quite, but $1000 is a pretty slim price for a machine as nice as an iMac. Now what Apple should do is make more intermediate hardware upgrades... They have a tendency to change their entire design and charge the same price within a week, and I think that makes some people afraid of when to buy. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I say build on the new iMac's design. I think it would be very cool if the main display could be seperated from the base and used as a wifi tablet. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:11:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? The two big cost (and value) items in a Win box are the P4 chip and the OS software. The audio, video, modem are now mostly done in software as processing power and RAM increase. Motherboard costs have been pushed down and are now very cheap. There's no way Apple could compete with Wintel on hardware cost in the consumer mass-market. Apple did the right thing with the new high-end machines although I prefer monospec and a single price point. Apple does have their core market which is multimedia pros and the high-end home user. Apple might try building a highly integrated x-86 box running Linux for the enterprise market, or SOHO, or the low-end home user. Apple might break into this market by taking a leadership position on the hardware side, OTOH, it might be more effort than it's worth to them. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I was able to get an emachine for 300$ + rebates. This was during the holiday season, so only a handful of computers were availible. It included a

2.5ghz celeron processor
256mb ddr ram
60 gig hard drive
dvd-rom and a cd burner.
i845gv 3 pci slots, no agp slots.
Windows XP home.

This particular computer was an emachine, from all the hypothetical specs everyone else listed; I do not see how Mac could even compete, without it just being a "Mac".

People I know in my school, who uses Mac, have a negative perception of Macs in general as being inferior; we run Mac OS 9 with its co-operative multi tasking. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:21:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ...you dont seem to want to learn now...

I mean come one, a $890 mac (with educational discount) is not THAT expensive. A switcher would not be someone who wants a cheap computer (cheap usually equal underpowered). Most switchers are demanding users Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Is there a Dell/HP/IBM/Toshiba that can compete price wise with the said eMachines? No? Does that mean that Dell and co can pack it in since they're no longer competitive?

The eMachines uses a built-in video adapter. Without an AGP slot, there is very little chance of upgrading the video adapter. What about USB ports? Firewire?

It's no wonder people in your school think macs are inferior. They're still running OS 9 with it's cooperative multi-tasking (in the 21st century?!?). Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? In the $300-$500 price range there might be $50-$100 profit for the manufacturer. [You sell a lot of inventory, but don't make a lot of profit...just like the legal music download business, in general].

In the $600-$800 price range there might be $150-$300 profit for the manufacturer. [You sell a little less inventory, but you make a lot more profit.]

Always remember that the computer manufacturer, regardless of who, is a business out to make a profit for themselves and their shareholders. Any company (computer or otherwise) who doesn't do that on a regular basis, doesn't stay in business very long.

Different companies use various forms of leverage to help make profits. Apple uses the power of the iPod to increase music sales, innovative design to increase computer sales, and extremely well priced servers (without per-seat licences) to increase corporate and government buyers, thus increasing bottomline corporate profit. Dell uses the power of lowcost manufacturing and lowcost marketing. Real recently reduced the selling price of it's music to $0.49. While that increased sales (some would say, temporairly), it cost Real over $2 million. HP is selling Apple's iPod with a HP logo.

All four examples are valid uses of corporate leverage. Which one works better will ultimately be told not by market share, units sold, price, or even which offers the best hardware, software, or options.

The better ones are the ones that offer, and will continue to offer, profitability to the companies and their shareholders. Currently there are two, and only two, computer companies that manufacturer PCs in this country that are profitable - Dell, and Apple. Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Panther works on G3 and it is not slow.
I have a B and W G3 and it runs w/o problems Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? @ Eugenia

No, smaller drives are more expensive.

Well, as you yourself wrote, technology is evolving fast. And MS is already using a 2.5" hard disk in the X Box.

Anyways, that and the base price are minor points. Your idea is a very good one, and all the criticism I read here boils down to a lot of people saying: "it can't be done".

Well, if only for that, it should be done. I hope Apple is listening... Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Xbox hard disks are 3.5" (I have one I cracked open with a 10gb Seagate) Sun, 12 Sep 2004 23:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I think there are a lot of computer users that would go for these products just because they can run Mac OSx on it. There are the users who have always liked Macs but can no longer afford them. There are the users who like Unix(or more specifically, MACH kernels) and would like to try out one with a slick gui. There are the users who simply like to diversify their hardware with sparcs and x86s, c64s, etc.

Personally, I've always wanted a Mac just to play around with but have never had the funds or purpose to switch. I can build a fast Wintel machine cheaper than anyone can shake a stick at, and even though Mac OSX gave me even more reason to play, I just really can't afford the price tag. Not everyone, who knows a lot about comuters, has money to burn.

"BrandX" is more in my price range. Furthermore, I remember when Apples were the only computers in schools. Now Wintels rule the school system, and a "headless mac" might change that faster than an eMac. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? is old mac users that ran the classic os for varying degrees of time abandoning apple when they look at os x.

its all new and requires a fresh learning curve to get into it

machines that run it are expensive (especially when they look in the newspaper every week and see pcs with similar specs for on average half the price)

old hardware and software from classic days either doesnt run at all or runs poorly in almost all scenarios. launching a slow classic environment doesnt cut it.

so an old user of mac looking to upgrade sees this all new environment and realizes, whoa, if i have to go through all that i might as well buy a pc with the os and software that everyone else uses. my kids know it, my neighbors use it, my office uses it and ive grown used to it, the book section at the store is filled with training materials for it, the local community college has classes to learn it, on and on and on....

all those things i see about pcs....

more handheld devices work on pc
more phones integrate with windows
more scanners work on pcs
more printers work on pcs
the software that comes bundled with those peripherals many times is windows only
my local stores are filled with pcs so i can see and shop for them easily
the same stores are filled with windows software and games

mac users are switching to windows in droves. im one and i know many others. far more than those that switch from windows to mac.

fact is long time windows users have much to be happy about.
over their usage life they have seen software on pcs grow less expensive, they have seen pcs grow substantially less expensive, and most importantly they have seen steady improvement out of ms: windows xp is better than windows 2000 or ME, windows 2000 was better than windows 98 or NT 4, windows 98 was better than windows 95, and windows 95 was better than windows 3.1.

yes, they have security to worry about. or they are clueless and just deal with it or on the other hand they or someone that helps them has a clue and easily makes windows as secure as any other os with proper configuration and either for pay or free tools and software.

Eugenia's idea is nice one, but unfortunately, those specs as she set up the low end machines are not far off what a base model emac contains. and they sell for at least 2x what she quoted for a suggested selling price. sorry, but apple isnt going to do it. a 17" monitor doesnt add $400 to their costs.

apple cant lower prices as they have incredibly slim profits as it is.

its very sad as i would buy a better priced mac. they simply cost too much for what you get. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? why we continue to have this sense of hope for apple when for a decade or more we have continued to wonder when we will see an affordable option or when we would see apple make some progress in the business world...

truth is apple makes no progress in the biz world...

truth is apple is nothing but a future fantasy...

and as the months and years go by we see no low priced macs ever released.

so if you want a budget machine you get something like the following...available now, not a dream, no distortion field, just get in your car and go to your local retailer and buy it:

circuit city has for $349 right now--

emachines t2824 with 17" crt eview17f3

includes an inkjet printer lexmark z714

2.53ghz celeron d
256mb ddr ram
8 in 1 memory card reader
40gb hard drive
dvd and cd-rw combo drive
keyboard, mouse and 1 yr warranty just like a mac

(spend over 2x to get those features in the base emac)

for $449 you get it with a 80gb hard drive, separate dvd and cd-rw drives, and 512mb ddr ram

or how about an emachine from best buy for $599

again 17" crt and lexmark printer but the pc includes:
amd athlon 3000+
512mb ddr ram
160gb hard drive
dvd-rw drive
8 in 1 card reader

or if you dont like emachines you can get a compaq from staples for $399

17" crt and same specs as the $349 emachines but it doesnt have the card reader or the printer. you pay for the name it seems.

all of the above include windows xp home and a small bundle of basic software...

you likewise can always find a toshiba, emachine, or compaq laptop for $599 or $699...budget laptops abound as well.

meanwhile we keep dreaming apple can somehow make a profit selling macs for half of what they now sell them for. considering they barely turn a profit on $7 billion in sales and 3.2 million macs sold each yr over the last few yrs, it is hard to fathom how they can lower prices and remain profitable.

and as for all those folks that will scream that those pcs dont include iLife, which is a a very good bundle of consumer software, all we have to say is it looks like about 250 million people thus far are satisfied with the bundle they get with xp:

xp has windows media player in place of itunes and quicktime (quicktime is free for pcs too as is itunes though)

xp has windows movie maker in place of imovie

xp with a cd burner will come bundled with nero or sonic or roxios easy cd creator basic for cd handling

xp with a dvd burner will likewise come with some solution like idvd free.

xp doesnt include a replacement for garageband but then again i dont think that is one of those must have programs for about 99% of users.

if an xp user wants more software, in the same stores for sale are:

ms office student teacher for $109 with 3 licenses ($40 off)

norton anti virus 2005 free after rebates

ms works 8 for $24 (if the cheap pc doesnt have it already)

ms digital imaging suite 10 for half off to $69

adobe photoshop elements 2 for half off to $49 (it is also included free with some printer and or scanner purchases....as is adobe photoshop album)

roxio easy cd/dvd creator suite 7 for $59 ($20 off)

roxio easy cd/dvd creator 6 can be had for like $5.99 these days

so after the saved money on the budget PC, the consumer can buy a load of software and peripherals and still come out way less than the cheapest eMac.

oh..... considering it is very important to many millions, those same stores are filled with game software that runs from $4.99 up to the hot new releases like Doom 3 for $59 that do not run on macs. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I remember reading the original strawberry article and agreeing with its essential premise. Since then I acquired a 1.2 Ghz 14" G4 ibook to play with and it is now my primary computer. In fact my 2 Ghz XP desktop is in the closet right now, I just moved and haven't needed to unpack it yet. I am hardly a mac fanatic but with all the security issues related to windows computers I can't imagine why apple wouldn't want to mass market a computer that is easy to use, consumer friendly, and most importantly secure. I think a strawberry line should be limited to small desktop comptuers though, with the ibook and powerbook lines I think that apple does an excellent job in terms of their notebook offerings. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:41:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Apple is irrelevant. It's a gnat on an elephant's back. I don't care how you twist the math: the fact of the matter is that Apple is continually losing market share to Dell and other PC OEMs. Apple is currently hovering somewhere around 2%. Within a couple years, it will have 1%. And so on. It always cracks me up when people say, "I know at least 3 or 4 other users who just upgraded". Rrrrright. But do you happen to know the 100 million people who bought PCs this year?!? Uhhhh, probably not. It's a numbers game. Apple can continue to hold onto some small part of the computer market -- but it's a marginal fragment that really doesn't signify anything of importance. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 04:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Your low end model is missing the firewire option. Sure ipods run on usb, however this is not the mac way of doing things. Lack of firewire will remove the possiblity to sell to the home film maker. This would prevent some sales of iLife and all sales of Final Cut Express.

Remember, Apple has followed the mantra of "everything you need, nothing you don't." Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I'm sure Apple's business analysts have crunched the numbers on this one:

- Relatively high fixed costs since you're talking about a new hardware platform and (although not necessary) separate version of the OS
- Very low margins per unit, especially including technical support for confused "switchers" who can't find the Start menu
- Likely cannibalization of several existing markets: education market (eMacs) and consumer market (iMacs, iBooks)
- A very small potential market ... this is a supposed home PC that doesn't come with a monitor and can't play the latest games (or really any decent games, with a 1 Ghz G3!). And it won't run Quicken, or Turbotax. It doesn't appeal to the 12-year-old who probably has the most say in purchasing a new computer, and it doesn't appeal to mom or dad either. It risks hurting Apple brand image, because it's seriously underpowered for anything than websurfing and word processing, and it'll look painfully sluggish doing that compared to the 2.8 Ghz eMachine next to it on the shelf at Best Buy. So the reality is that it *isn't* a home PC (iMac or eMac are) ... it's for people who would otherwise have bought a $1200 PowerMac or a cheap linux box.

I love my Mac, but the reality of Apple's Mac business is that most Mac buyers are already Mac users, or at least know someone with a Mac they've tried.

Apple has an extremely small market share, and they're growing that share profitably and organically. Maybe there's room to cut PowerMac G4 prices under a grand, so a 1.25 Ghz tower would cost, say, $50 less than it's eMac counterpart. But there's no reason to do that unless Apple thinks it could make up the lost margins in volume.

There seems to be this myth or cult among Mac lovers that if only Apple "did something" it could compete with Wintel. Maybe 20 years ago. 10 years ago Apple tried, and licensing the MacOS almost sent it under. Today the Mac is even more marginalized as a computing platform -- sure OS X is better than XP, but with dwindling application support (no ACT, no Quicken, no Visio, no Outlook) the platform overall isn't an easy sell. People aren't going to buy lower-end Macs just because they're almost as cheap as low-end PCs. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 05:39:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Today the Mac is even more marginalized as a computing platform -- sure OS X is better than XP, but with dwindling application support (no ACT, no Quicken, no Visio, no Outlook) the platform overall isn't an easy sell. People aren't going to buy lower-end Macs just because they're almost as cheap as low-end PCs.

That is the second time you said "no Quicken". Intuit has a version of quicken for the Mac, in fact I run it.
http://www.shop.intuit.com/commerce/catalog/product.jhtml?priorityC...

There is a Turbotax for the Mac too. For that matter you can do turbotax online from a webbrowser. Entourage by Microsoft is the Outlook for Mac sans the worms. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This is the most funny article I have ever read on osnews.com. It reminds me the works of Freud and his ideas of undiscovered desires of a person.

Apple is a business company that makes profit by keeping a high quality image.

This article is more than a wish which will never be aplied cause that would be against all the philosophy of Apple.
Take for an example Mercedes -Benz. They will never make a cheep car and the less expensive of them is 20 000 euro.Cause they sell because of their image.

Apple is like Mercedes-Benz. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:56:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? running os x on x86-64, and os x native applications in "emulation"

would allow apple product differentiation, plus amd and nvidia/via would shoulder R&D costs. want a white box? buy amd64 and run os x. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Buy an eMac on eBay !!!
Apple won't sell those so cheap computers ...
And i wouldn't buy a Apple computer like taht neitheir ...

Just just want a PC, so buy it and put linux on it. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I do have a G4/800 PowerMac SP with a 17Inch Cinema Display. I am very sattisfied with its performance, but the machine in not silent enough. So I really would like to upgrade.
I really do like the new iMac, just perfect, but I already have the 17Inch Cinema Display, so I have to look at the High End Powermacs, which I cannot justify.

Besides this, the enterprise world really could use a 'crippled' headless Mac. (No FireWire/USB2/DVD-CD burner, integrated Videocard), it does has not have to be as cheap as PC's since it doesn't run XP. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? PS. Does Panther run in G3? God that would be slow..

-> Is running as slow as on g4/g5... os-x unbuilt slow-downers work on multiple cpu's. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why should apple sell 400dollar PCs, why not Sony, or Toshiba, or HP? You guys need to put things in perpective...or get an MBA... Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Jobs' first job at Apple (again) was killing clones. This idea is about reviving them(in some form). Say Strawberry, think Powercomputing. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "This article is more than a wish which will never be aplied cause that would be against all the philosophy of Apple.
Take for an example Mercedes -Benz. They will never make a cheep car and the less expensive of them is 20 000 euro.Cause they sell because of their image.

Apple is like Mercedes-Benz."

Mercedes Benz makes millions cheap cars...they are called Chryslers. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:06:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I quite agree with your analisys, but regarding CPU, i don't think is a good idea to support more CPUs, neither tecnically (more testing and optimization needed) nor commercially (higher volumes will cut prices of the selected CPUs).
I think also that Apple should change his mind regarding G5, their tdp is slightly higher than centrino's one and they CAN be good notebook processor right now.
G4 should be relegated to ultraportable hardware, but slightly undervolted and underclocked G5 (i think it can be done also by software) would have a tdp and power consumption good also for ultraportables so G4 is defintely out jet at present days, and it would simplify the apple's software optimization challange.
I think that G4 are still supported because they don't want to rely only on a single CPU manifacturer.
Regarding no iLife bundle, i must agree that it would help in cutting prices, but it means to encourage piracy... Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? First of all, Apple officials - twice I believe - have said they are concentrating on high end computing. This is certainly confusing to anyone interested in the lower end.

Yet, they do come out with a new iMac. And, as someone pointed out to me, the advertising at the Apple site says, "From the creators of the iPod". Well, it doesn't surprise me Apple would try to drive sales of Macs with the iPod, but I was surprised they are doing it in such a blunt fashion. But, this doesn't sound like "emphasis on high end computing only". And, it seems to me, they do need a lower end Mac to go hand in hand with with the iPod. Or two.

Nothing Apple does will shoot them into the stratosphere, but what they could use is a real shot in the arm like the original multi-colored iMacs gave them. After a certain point, Apple made everything white or silver. They need something colorful again to catch the attention of teenagers, college students and others. The best way to do this is to retire the CRT eMac and replace it with such a Mac.

I saw a mock-up some guys, I think, from Germany, made when everyone was speculating about what the new iMac would look like. There idea was Cubes (headless) in different colors - the colors of the mini-iPods. The mock-up looked great.

Apple could offer a couple of LCDs the same quality as those of the now retired iLamp iMac, but with no obligation or tricks to almost force people to buy one. Make it as easy as can be for people to use their CRTs or non-Apple LCDs.

I don't know about processor costs - perhaps Eugenia or someone could address this better - but what about using the 1.25 GHz G4 in current eMacs and that were in the discontinued iMacs? It runs Panther pretty well and I don't recall there ever being a shortage of them, which was nice. I suppose the big thing would be the savings if people already have a display or want to purchase a less expensive one. Beyond that, there would be a new cool factor for the young. It could be "from the creators of the mini-iPod" ;-) Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I would rather like to pay € 700-800 for a "real" Mac, something like a headless iMac G5 or so, with 1 or 2 PCI and one AGP slot. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:00:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Mercedes Benz makes millions cheap cars...they are called Chryslers."

In Europe Chryslers cost more than Mercedes. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:46:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I agree. I would like to see a real G5 mac under $1000. A SP 1.8GHz, combo drive and 160 GByte disk should be doable at that price. 1 AGP and 2 PCI would do it for me as well. Minimal RAM, I can buy my own. I can even do without a mouse and keyboard at this price. On the other hand, TWO OPTICAL DRIVE BAYS please.

When you think about it, the 20" cinema display is $1299, the 20" iMac is $1899, so you should be able to get all this for $600. OK, add $100 for packaging and you get $699. OK, mark this up to $899 to make up for the lost sales of DP G5s and you still have something that would sell like hotcakes. At that price, I can justify replacing my G4 867 a couple years sooner.

I believe this would greately expand the market, not cut into sales of high end DP G5s. There is a huge gap between the iMac and the bottom of the G5 line. Some of us simply prefer to have a separate monitor and I already own an apple 20" monitor. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If increasing market share is everything-just port Os X to Intel chips and sell it for $129! No need to go through this hassle of establishing a separate brand. One requirement-hardware must be certified to run Os X-just as it is to run XP. Then sell other software for extra $$$, iLife-$50, a new better Office software-$200. This will of course mean the end of the Mac as we know it-It is not going to happen unless Apples market share goes to less than 1% and it the last ditch stand for Steve Jobs and Co.

On the other hand, if more and more people who have bought iPods start to buy Macs for their next computer (this is apparently happening), and market share increases, hardware prices will come down eventually. Right now it is the chicken and egg situation. Prices are high because market share is low and vice versa.


Cheers Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Why not just use both a Mac and PC. I don't understand why people have to be one or the other. I'm partial to my mac, but I like using my pc too. I guess people of my generation thinks differently about this whole subject, we've now grown up with iPods and Macs and PC's in schools. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I really really really really really want to like apple. The boxes are cute, they have an attitude and they're not microsoft. And then I bought an iBook laptop, and you know what? IT SUCKS!!! And not just sucks, but REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY SUCKS!!! The feel of the UI is just horrible. Most of it has to do with that idiotic idea of the one button mouse - menus that don't stay up without holding the button down - the awkward workarounds for the 2nd button, the weird keyboard shortcuts, etc. JUST SHOOT ME! Man, what a pain in the ass. The very very spare availibity of programs, the confusing menu wording/text, the inability to easily customize the OS, the general feeling I get of being constrained and forced to do things in ways I detest. The Mac sucks.

The reason Apple is not successful (percentage of users) is not because of cheap hardware. Even if they had cheap hardware most people would still hate Macs. The OS just plain sucks. Even if Apple ported MacOS to x86 hardware, they would fail to compete with microsoft and linux - the OS doesn't measure up. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:14:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? He's the decider and the boss at Apple. If he decides to make such a machine (which would really be "the computer for the rest of us"), then the entire company will follow him and they could have it launched in record time.

Eugenia's idea is very good. There are two variables that have to be played with: the technical specs and the retail price. The idea for the product itself is great: the Mac for the Masses, the VW of Macs, the BettleMac, the Maclite, call it what you want. The rest is almost irrelevant: the point is to have a cheap, small, simple headless Mac. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? would fit the bill for most offices with an extremely low TCO. For one they would save on downtime caused by the endless proliferation of Winblows viruses... Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:22:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Can someone tell the reasoning, why Pegasos doesn't seel (as far as I know) their motherboards as full systems, with all you need, and both Linux + MorphOS preinstalled?

I was curious to get one way back, but don't want the built-it-yourself attitude. I want *them* to pick the right video cards etc. & set it up for me..

Then again, I do have a Mac. Possibly just because the way I think.

-ak Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? They do for businesses:

http://www.pegasosppc.com/solutions.php

As long as you have to tinker so much with the software (lack of flash player, nvidia & ati drivers etc. for PPC Linux, installation of Mac OS X on Mac-on-Linux) i thnink the Pegasos is only for home users who are able and want to build their own system, so it would not make mauch sense to offer Pegasos boxes to individuals, let alone distributing them in stores. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? This would be pointless for Apple. Why market the "Digital Hub" and sell a machine without iLife.

Thats the essence of Apple, "it all works together"!

Price is not a problem for Apple. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? is a pc

ms makes windows media center

windows media player 10

windows portable media player os and devices

windows pocketpc 2003

windows smartphones

more devices work with windows with digital media

more tv tuner card choices

more movie cameras and support software

more digital cameras and support software

more dvd burner choices

more music service choices

more movie download choices work with windows

more portable music players work with windows

more wireless choices

the mac is the odd man out when it comes to being the digital hub.

more like a broken spoke. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:58:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? yes you may have more choices on hardware, but, do they all work together?

NO. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? >is a pc
I assume you mean x86 based pc

>ms makes windows media center
which has succeded oh so well

>windows media player 10
if youre willing to put up with wmp when there are so many better alternatives, even on windows, you are saying you should be ignored in techie discussions

>windows portable media player os and devices
you HAVE heard of the iPod right? you know, that device that apple made the took the entire portable music market by storm. there has yet to be a device to even match it in terms of features and user interface.

>windows pocketpc 2003
http://www.pocketmac.net/ from a google "i feel lucky".

>windows smartphones
http://www.pocketmac.net/products/pmphone3/pmphone3.html same company

>more devices work with windows with digital media
examples? i assume your talking about 20$ digital cameras and whatnot, many of which dont work with windows xp and never will. "but it runs garbage hardware" is an argument for windows i guess, but not really a good one.

>more tv tuner card choices
yup, here you are correct. when you buy apple, you are buying into a propriatary hardware solution. plus side is everything works together in a far smoother way then you are used to from an x86 frankenputer. minus side is your choices are more limited.

>more movie cameras and support software
note the garbage hardware response. digital cameras being what they are, and at the price they are, analogue cameras are legacy hardware now. im sure that apple 5 1/4" floppy support is pretty bad now too...

>more digital cameras and support software
a movie camera is a device which work with windows with digital media.

>more dvd burner choices
note the tv tuner response. your getting high quality hardware that is guarenteed to work great with your box, the tradeoff is lack of choice.

>more music service choices
check out apple's itunes music store market share sometime before you say this is an issue.

>more movie download choices work with windows
are you talking about legally downloading movies? i have zero knowledge about that, so you may be right. if you are talking about illegal ways, i guess bit torrent, ftp, and the irc never made it to the mac. if your talking about kazaa, once again, you are showing yourself to not know what you are talking about.

>more portable music players work with windows
the vast majority are cross platform, and of course theres ipod to look at.

>more wireless choices
yes. i get it. not that much choice in hardware components.

>the mac is the odd man out when it comes to being the >digital hub.

>more like a broken spoke.

i guess if you are very poor, then your argument holds water. if you want quality, then chances are it will work with mac. if you want bargin bin, chances are it wont work with mac, or any subsiquent version of windows as such companys have a way of starting up and dying in a few years. i have more then one friend who has to use their scanner or webcam in linux, they dont have support anymore in windows.

now, reasons to get a mac would be things like having a cpu that doesnt suck, having an operating system that doesnt suck, and having hardware that is guarenteed to work together. eugenia is talking about making this accessible to people who dont want to spend that much on a computer (the email/im/web people, or techies who dont want to put down three grand on a machine they dont know too much about) Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ">windows portable media player os and devices
you HAVE heard of the iPod right? "

i do believe he is referring to ms new portable media center players that have color screens and integrate via windows media player 10 and a pc running windows xp or xp media center edition.

ipods dont play recorded color tv shows and recorded movies etc.

nor do they show color photos from your digital camera.

nor do they play color games.....

pocketpcs do the same things of course but not with as tight an integration as the new device working working with media center edition.

great sales of windows media center? not like windows xp, but it sells large numbers none the less. enough to make apple a lot of money. the whole idea is new and is steadily growing. fact is ms is in the arena and apple isnt.

">windows media player 10
if youre willing to put up with wmp when there are so many better alternatives, even on windows, you are saying you should be ignored in techie discussions"

i see plenty of discussion giving major props to the new wmp 10. look around a bit and check back with us.

">windows pocketpc 2003
http://www.pocketmac.net/ from a google "i feel lucky"."

spend more to get buggy software that is not fully funtional. typical solution on the mac...spend more for 2 button mouse, spend more to get scanner drivers via vuescan etc.

">more dvd burner choices
note the tv tuner response. your getting high quality hardware that is guarenteed to work great with your box, the tradeoff is lack of choice. "

sure sure, like the new dual layer 16x pioneer is junk. apple doent put it in their machines now but will a yr from now when they can get better margins on em. in the meantime, $3k macs come with slow 8x burners that dont do dual layer or the + standard.

"having hardware that is guarenteed to work together"

that guarantee didnt hold for powerbook batteries, ibook and powerbook logic boards, ibook and powerbook spotty lcds, or powermac power supplies.

sure sure, the ati and nvidia cards, the seagate hard drives, the pioneer dvd burners, the samsung or crucial ram all take on magical qualities when installed in macs yet they are just error prone trash when in pcs.

hehe, that is funny. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:24:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? >more movie download choices work with windows
are you talking about legally downloading movies? i have zero knowledge about that, so you may be right. if you are talking about illegal ways, i guess bit torrent, ftp, and the irc never made it to the mac. if your talking about kazaa, once again, you are showing yourself to not know what you are talking about.

Bit torrent, ftp, irc, eDonkey, gnutella, kazaa and gang are all supported on the mac. Bit Torrent, ftp and irc aren't solely used for downloading warez!!

Most of the Apple Developer updates are downloaded via ftp. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/windowsxp_mce2004.asp

"Conclusions

In the year since Windows XP Media Center Edition was first released, my family's HP Media Center PC has become a fixture in our home, and the primary means through which we interact with the TV. Despite the various issues we've had with the software, we'd never give it up, and that is perhaps the highest complement one can pay to any digital device. Thanks to improvements in Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004, these devices are even more valuable and reliable, and with price points falling, I have fewer reservations about recommending Media Center PCs to typical consumers. Setup is still confusing, but that's true for any DVR device, and the extras you get with a full-fledged Windows XP PC should not be overlooked. As the reigning multimedia champ, Windows XP is still the best way to interact with digital music, photos, and videos, and with its neat ten-foot interface, XP Media Center Edition 2004 brings this content out of the home office and into the more comfortable living spaces of your home. Few people now doubt that computer technology and home entertainment are merging, and Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004 is the clearest indication yet of that trend. This release is a winner, and an exciting preview of the future."

http://www.anandtech.com/multimedia/showdoc.aspx?i=2204

from conclusion page--

"Assuming ME and MTV have a few UI enhancements like those we mentioned for the general UI and their plug-ins, we may have a clear HTPC winner (aside from MCE 2004)"

windows media center edition is being opened up this fall to oems and will soon even be available as separate retail purchase for people to build their own. its going mainstream and prices are dropping and sales are going up.

each release has gotten ever better reviews and compared to do it yourself mac, windows (like via an ati all in wonder), or via linux i see mce 2004 winning all reviews.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Media_Center_PCs/4520-3118_7-5083732.html

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1304922,00.asp

and of course the choices on mac are extremely limited...even ati, one of apples longtime oem partners doesnt make their all in wonder cards for the mac. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ">more movie download choices work with windows
are you talking about legally downloading movies? i have zero knowledge about that, so you may be right. if you are talking about illegal ways, i guess bit torrent, ftp, and the irc never made it to the mac. if your talking about kazaa, once again, you are showing yourself to not know what you are talking about.

Bit torrent, ftp, irc, eDonkey, gnutella, kazaa and gang are all supported on the mac. Bit Torrent, ftp and irc aren't solely used for downloading warez!!"

morpheus came to mac never if i remember right.

kazaa came to mac very late.

macs for the longest time had limewire and the gnuttela network.

did mac users have to wait on bittorrent clients too? Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:40:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? im sorry, i was being sarcastic. i was trying to point out that all the ways of getting high quality movies illegally are available on the mac as well. where it suffers (a bit) is on things like peer to peer filesharing networks, which no self respecting pirate would use anyways (knowledge from a misspent youth, now that i have money and a job (and have grown a sense of ethics in recent years) the only time i break copyright law is in matters of ethics, and is more a form of civil disobedience then anything.

as for that wmc review, all i know is that the first one failed miserably. who knows, this new edition may make it, but the first one was a stupedous flop. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:50:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "as for that wmc review, all i know is that the first one failed miserably. who knows, this new edition may make it, but the first one was a stupedous flop."

stupendous?

as in?

tell us more?

opinion or you have some real data to back up "stupendous flop"?

do you mean like along the lines of the newton?

actually the first version got pretty favorable reviews when compared to do it yourself options...compared to tightly integrated solution like tivo it is not as smooth, but then a tivo doesnt come close to the power and flexibility of mce.

the update to mce 2004 is also free. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:13:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? that guarantee didnt hold for powerbook batteries, ibook and powerbook logic boards, ibook and powerbook spotty lcds, or powermac power supplies.

Of Course it did. Apple replaced them expeditiously at no cost to the customer.

No one claimed that Apple hardware is perfect, as in no maufacturing defects. Ever manufacturer has issues, there will always be bad components that ship.

BTW, Apple doesn't make batteries, LG did. My powerbook didn't have a bad battery. You can't just generalize a one batch problem.

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/windowsxp_mce2004.asp

Paul Thurrot writting a pro MS review, who would have thought!!!! Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:36:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? quoting paul thurrot about macs is a thread killer.


this anon guy is in his obsession about macs.

He out zealots mac zealots (in an opposite but equal kind of way).

OS news mac threads are too funny with this guy. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? we should take matts opinion on mce when he may well have never seen one and almost certainly hasnt tested dozens of models as part of his job.

trolls have to attack the one review by one person instead of seeing that several are listed and you can do a google of your own and read dozens more.

bottom line is mce gets favorable reviews from nearly all that take a look at it. and again apple has no offering in the space.

apple is the not center of any hub, its the broken spoke with poor third party support and never ending hoops to jumpt through to make things work. Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:49:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "spend more to get buggy software that is not fully funtional"

PocketMac is NOT a buggy software. Did you use it? I think not.
Anyway, if you want there are Mark/Space solutions, a little bit more professional.
http://www.markspace.com/

Nice: on Mac you have TWO solutions to sync your PocketPC; on Windows you have ONLY ONE solution by Microsoft. There is more freedom of choise about PocketPC syncing on Mac than on Windows. Very nice. :-D Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:57:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If you don't like Apple, why do you post on a thread about Apple?
I read ALL Linux thread, but I don't like it and I don't post on it: it isn't my problem.
Get your life, please. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? If Apple is going to ignore this market, then a company like Genesi could certainly fill the gap. Their Pegasos-2 Micro-ATX PowerPC motherboard is already shipping, and it runs multiple different versions of linus, Mac OS X (based on MOL), and MorphOS, a next-generation Amiga-like OS.

Genesi is even offering now a Open Desktop workstation pre-loaded with Linux and MorphOS. Check it out at http://www.genesi.lu.

Darren Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? so lets do a real breakdown of where apple is on the low end

let's use their lowest priced mac, the emac with combo drive for $799--

it has:

http://www.apple.com/emac/specs.html
M9425LL/A
NO printer included
17" crt with max res of 1280x960
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
167mhz bus
256MB of PC2700 expandable to 1gb
NO card reader included
40GB Ultra ATA/100
dvd and cd-rw combo drive 8x dvd read and 24x cd-r burn and 10x cd-rw burn
ATI Radeon 9200; 32MB dedicated DDR SDRAM video memory
keyboard and mouse and 1 yr warranty
software bundle (Mac OS X version 10.3 "Panther", Software Classic environment, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iLife (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD (has no value without a dvd burner), GarageBand), iSync, iCal, DVD Player, AppleWorks, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Quicken 2004 for Mac,World Book 2004 Edition, Sound Studio,Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, Deimos Rising, Zinio Reader, Apple Hardware Test)

and on the pc side we will go with the lowest priced windows pc i have seen

circuit city has emachines t2824 for $349--

it has--

http://weeklyad.circuitcity.com/circuitcity/default.aspx?action=bro...
inkjet printer lexmark z714
with 17" crt eview17f3 with max res of 1280x1024
2.53ghz celeron d
533mhz bus
256mb pc2100 ram expandable to 1gb
8 in 1 memory card reader
40GB Ultra ATA/100
dvd and cd-rw combo drive 16x dvd read and 48x cd-r burn and 24x cd-rw burn
Intel® Extreme Graphics 3D with 64mb shared memory
keyboard, mouse and 1 yr warranty
software bundle (Windows® XP Home Edition, Microsoft® Works, Microsoft® Money, Encarta Online, Adobe Acrobat® Reader, Norton Antivirus™ (90-day subscription),Internet Explorer 6, Windows Media Player 10, Real Player, Power DVD, Windows Movie Maker)

so what do we get:

pc comes with a printer
pc comes with monitor with higher resolution and is easily replaced, upgraded, or sent off repair without losing use of machine
pc has cpu with double the clock rate (performance is similar however)
pc has bus that is over 3x faster
mac has faster ram
pc comes with an 8 in 1 card reader
both come with identical specced hard drive
pc comes with substantially faster combo drive
mac has a moderately better video card
mac has an optical mouse but the pc comes with 2 button and scroll on mouse
mac has an os more full featured like windows xp pro, the pc comes with just xp home
mac has a more complete software package
pc has legacy parallel and serial ports for old printers etc.
pc has 3 open drive bays, mac has none
pc has 3 pci slots, mac has none
pc has 5 usb 2.0 ports, the mac has only 3 but also has 2 usb 1.1 ports
pc has separate components for ease of repair, upgrade etc.
mac has all in one design for space savings
both have 56k modems
both have 10/100 networking
both are capable of using wireless networking
both have stereo speakers
pc can upgrade its video card easily
pc can easily replace a dead modem or network card
pc can easily upgrade the optical or hard drives
both can have bluetooth added
mac has 2 firewire 400 ports, the pc has none
mac looks better, cooler, whatever you would like to call it
pc has a better future with tower design it can quite easily be upgraded by the end user in nearly every way, using readily available components from a mini atx motherboard, cpus, memory, hard drives, optical drives, pci based video cards etc etc. 2 or 3 or 4 yrs down the road the pc can be overhauled without any fuss.

you judge the difference. the mac costs $799 plus tax and shipping. the PC is $349 plus tax and the hassle of doing rebates.

looking at the above specs and set of features, I'd say apple has a firmly low end machine but it has a mid range price. for the average user looking to surf the web, do email, play with a few photos, play a few basic games, do quicken or money, the pc has more than they need and it costs $450 less.

what can you do with that $450 saved to customize your pc to fit your exact needs? just look in a sales flyer from microcenter, staples, or circuit city, or whoever this week--- add as you please:

download and install free zone alarm firewall
purchase norton anti virus 2005 (free or up to $19 on sale on a regular basis)
or download and install free antivirus from computer associates http://www.my-etrust.com/microsoft/
download and install free spybot search and destroy 1.3 http://www.safer-networking.org/en/download/
(that is your bug a boo security hysteria taken care of for free)
buy firewire pci card with 3 ports for as little as $5
19" crt for $79
ms office student teacher for $109
802.11b wireless usb for $19.99
12x +/- dvd burner for $79
kodak 3.2megapixel camera for $129
wireless ms mouse and keyboard for $49
external 120gb usb 2 hard drive for $120
100 pack of 52x cd-r for $15
upgrade to xp pro for $80 for students or edu, $129 for all others

you get the drift, you can do a lot of customizing to make the pc do exactly what you want for that $450 you saved.

we can keep dreaming that apple makes us something affordable for the low end or we can live in the real world and keep buying inexpensive emachines and hps and compaqs and dells when we live on a budget and need just a simple computer. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 02:31:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? You can buy Macs from other sellers that offer rebates too.

Why don't you price it straight from emachines site?
http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T282...
$399.99
+ montior $109

The emac monitor is better
1280 by 960 pixels at 75Hz

Vs.

the eView 17f3 1280 x 1024 @ 60 Hz

THe deals below give you a vastly superior printer FREE.

Lexmark Z714
. Up to 17 ppm
• Up to 4800 x 1200 dpi
• Borderless photos
• Optional 6-color printing

Epson Stylus C84#
# Print speed: Black: up to 22 pages per minute; color: up to 12 ppm; 4 x 6-inch photo: 1 min 7 sec; 8 x 10-inch photo: 2 min 18 sec (pages per minute based on text memo in Economy mode on plain paper; color photo is in Photo Mode on Epson DURABrite Ink Glossy Photo Paper; additional processing time may vary based on system configuration, software application and page complexity)
# Print resolution: Up to 5,760 x 1,440 optimized dpi using RPM on various media


eMac G4 with free printer
"Receive the Epson Stylus C84 Printer FREE (after mail-in rebates) when you purchase this computer and the Printer (item # 457057) on the same order. All 3 of the following rebates must be redeemed for the printer to be free. Limit one rebate per household, per customer:
[rebate/offer]
[rebate/offer #2]
[rebate/offer #3]
SAVE $200 on Final Cut Express with any Apple CPU purchase! Final Cut Express now only $99! Call 888-294-0256 for details and to place your order."
http://www.macconnection.com/web/Shopping/Product.htm?catalog%5...


Here is another:
eMac G4 1.25GHz Combo Drive 17" Flat CRT Display, System Only
Purchase a CPU and a qualifying Epson printer between 7/1/04 & 9/30/04 and get a $29 rebate.
Offer good through Sep 30 2004 11:59PM PST.

Free DVD Player #449447 with any CPU purchase after mail in rebates!
Offer good through Sep 30 2004 11:59PM PST.

FREE 256MB memory upgrade after $49.95 mail-in rebate with purchase of qualifying eMac systems
Offer good through Sep 30 2004 11:59PM PST.

And more:

Buy any Macintosh Computer and a qualifying HP Printer and get up to $99 via mail-in rebate.
Offer good through Sep 25 2004 11:55PM PST.

Buy any Macintosh computer along with .Mac and save $30 on .Mac via mail-in rebate.
Offer good through Sep 25 2004 11:55PM PST.

FREE USB Floppy Drive #253420 with purchase of eMac or iMac after mail-in rebate
Offer good through Sep 30 2004 11:55PM PST.

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail.asp?dpno=401764&stor...

Here's another:
* Free Epson C86 Printer
* Save $30 on .Mac Internet Essentials
* Get Final Cut Express for only $99
* Free You Control and You Synchronize
* MYOB FirstEdge for only $29.99

+ also # FREE 256MB*

http://www.zones.com/cgi-bin/zones/site/product/index.html?id=00090... Tue, 14 Sep 2004 02:55:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? offers require you pay a $40 installation fee.

"Promotion #422
FREE 256MB memory upgrade after $49.95 mail-in rebate with purchase of qualifying eMac systems
Offer good through Sep 30 2004 11:59PM PST.



Purchase select eMac Systems with a 256MB RAM upgrade & professional installation and qualify for a $49.95 mail in rebate. Requires $39.99 professional installation fee. While supplies last."

http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?Mfr%2BProductline=eM...

there is 256mb for the emachines with a lifetime warranty for $49.

the memory can be had cheaper elsewhere but wont have the crucial quality and warranty.

and i quoted circuit citys price as the vast majority of emachines pcs are sold in retail stores. the vast majority of macs are however sold by apple directly to consumers via their online and retail stores. you will rarely get any of those deals when buying from apple.

at least in the usa, consumers are exposed to those super low prices for pcs on tv ads, radio ads, and in the weekly sunday paper for emachines, hp, and compaq at a wide variety or retailers:

staples
officemax
officedepot
compusa
fryes
bestbuy
costco
walmart
circuit city
etc etc Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:16:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? and i quoted circuit citys price as the vast majority of emachines pcs are sold in retail stores. the vast majority of macs are however sold by apple directly to consumers via their online and retail stores. you will rarely get any of those deals when buying from apple.

Stop quibbling, accept defeat. Buying straight form any manufacturer other than dell, limits you to the deals they offer. Case in point, emachines.com as was posted above doesn't offer a free printer.

The monitor offered by Circuit City with the deal is pretty bad 1280x1024 @60hz, come on. The best resolution on that thing is possibly 1024x768. I am pointing this out becuase you listed resolution as a + for the emachines deal.

You have been proven worng so many times it's not even funny. Give up. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Ooh look, crucial has the same deal for the eMac. $49 lifetime warranty.

http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?Mfr%2BProductline=Ap... Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:34:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Give up."

thats why the best selling computers in the united states are pcs that retail for less than $600.

no need to give up, when consumers evaluate the above they choose pcs.

the whole point of eugenias thread here is that apple is losing out by not having a reasonable low end option. for $799 i can show you a pc that is substantially better than an eMac. the above $349 pc is a toss up for $450 less!

tell us why they shouldnt?

garageband?
idvd that is included in a computer that cant even use it?
itunes that a pc user can download and use for free too?
appleworks over ms works?
or is it just the cute design that should sway us?

what about the mac overcomes that $450 price difference?

you are giving up if you cant do better than just ask me to give up.

explain yourself.

as i pointed out above if you dont like the emachines 17" crt you can pick up a replacement 19" crt for $79 this week at microcenter....you can also get a 64mb visiontek pci based dual head video card for $39 and use both monitors. the emac cant even do dual monitor (mirroring only) without a hack that might well void your warranty.

add the $79 and $39 and you still come out $332 less expensive than the eMac. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "Ooh look, crucial has the same deal for the eMac. $49 lifetime warranty."

so dont say its free if it takes a $40 installation fee.

on a $349 pc, $40 is more than 10% of the total cost. not free. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:45:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? the new celerons are much better than the previous models

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2093

from conclusion page:

"Final Words
The numbers don't lie: Prescott is very well suited for Celeron. Not only do the new Celeron 3xx line of processors perform better than the previous Northwood based Celerons, but even when hampered by a 400MHz FSB, the Prescott Celerons consistently showed improved performance over their predecessors. Even more impressive is the fact that the Celeron 3xx line is able to keep pace with AMD's 2600+ and under Athlon XP line."

the 3xx series celeron d has a 533mhz bus. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? That article was trying way too hard to compare feature by feature.

It is more like Mercedes & Yugo's. Both have four wheels, both have radios, both have steering wheels and both get you from point A to point B. But that does not mean Mercedes will drop it's prices to sell more cars. Some people can afford Mercedes for all the features and luxury and there are others that can not. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:25:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? so the emachines is a yugo

and the eMac is Mercedes body with a yugo inside.

the body is worth $450 extra huh? Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:27:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? tell us why they shouldn't?

My Xp box just got 2 viruses even with the latest Symantec Anitvirus Corporate edition + firewall + hardware firewall. The best thing is I harldy use it. Don't even use outlook or any P2P filesharing program. I start it once in a while when my wiife needs to use it, she uses firefox (so it can't be IE) . all the latest patches installed Except SP2.


My powerbook is Virus free. Peace of mind is a damn fine reason, don't you think?

garageband?

Sure if they were musically inclined. I have used it and it rocks and I am no musician.

idvd that is included in a computer that cant even use it?

You can attach a external drive can't you???? The emachines doesn't come with a DVD burner either.


appleworks over ms works?
No how about these:
Quicken 2004 for Mac - ($70 ) ,
World Book 2004 Edition ($59.99)
Sound Studio, feltip ($59.99
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, ($29.99)
Deimos Rising, ($20)
Zinio Reader,

$250 + free software.

Not to forget MacOS X is a full featured OS, XP home is not. Accounting for the difference in price say about $99. The eMac looks sweeter.

That leaves $200 price differnetial. Subract $99 for XP pro + $49.95 (annually) for antivirus protection ( CA only gives you one year free).

That leaves us with a difference of $50.

or is it just the cute design that should sway us?

$50 for a amazing build quality/finish + an amazingly quiet machine. Absolutely worth it.

what about the mac overcomes that $450 price difference?
All of the above. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 05:17:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Another reason to get the eMac over the emachines. The emachines warranty is pretty basic and very strict and stringent. You pay for a toll call to thier customer care department.

You pay to ship the product under warranty, You are responsible for damages and dor missing parts ??????

Apple sends you a prepaid box and ships the machine back 2nd day Air. I sent my powerbook on Friday and got the machine back on tuesday (Monday was a holiday).

Apple stores can also take a machine needing repair and ship it for you and take delivery for you. Apple stores have "Genius Bars" with extremely knowledgeable people, you are free to ask any question to free.

None of the PC retailers can have that.

You will be required to ship your defective computer system freight prepaid in the original packaging materials or replacement packaging materials provided by eMachines. Upon receipt of the defective unit, eMachines will ship the replacement unit via UPS Ground. Expedited shipment (Federal Express or UPS-Blue/Red) is available at the customer expense. You are responsible for any damages occurring shipping and transportation from you, including damages incurred by the failure to use the original packaging materials or replacement packaging materials provided by eMachines

A charge will be incurred in the event that the returned unit is missing any hardware item from the original packaging contents. IMPORTANT: you should keep the software and manuals. For Microsoft Windows 98 and Microsoft Works software, you must keep your original manuals, CD-keys and accessories (keyboard, mouse, speakers and cables) from the original unit, since the replacement unit will be shipped pre-loaded, but without the manuals, CD-keys and accessories. If you lose these items you will have to purchase replacement units. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:04:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? > Can someone tell the reasoning, why Pegasos doesn't seel (as
> far as I know) their motherboards as full systems, with all
> you need, and both Linux + MorphOS preinstalled?

Genesi doesn't do, right. But most resellers offer prebuilt machines with OSes (MOS and Linux) and Software preinstalled.
http://www.pegasosppc.com/purchase.php
However prices are still quite high (much more expensive than Eugenia's projected price for the Strawberry Mac...), yet on MorphZone the "heads" of Genesi there was a mention of possible future price reductions... We'll see (well, not me, I already have a Pegasos2 G4, so, unless prices go dramatically down, I'm done).

Kind regards,
Andrea Tue, 14 Sep 2004 09:37:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? since you like to pull that hysterical security issue out whenever youd like to claim supremacy, tell us about what virus you got on

"My Xp box just got 2 viruses even with the latest Symantec Anitvirus Corporate edition + firewall + hardware firewall. The best thing is I harldy use it. Don't even use outlook or any P2P filesharing program. I start it once in a while when my wiife needs to use it, she uses firefox (so it can't be IE) . all the latest patches installed Except SP2."

what virus, when did you get it? tell us a little about the norton logs say or are you just whaling? did the viruses arrive and immediately get quarantined or deleted by norton?

fill us in on this horrible virus that still infects a fully patched and perfectly or nearly perfectly protected xp box.

"My powerbook is Virus free. Peace of mind is a damn fine reason, don't you think?"

it sure is, but funny thing is not one pc i use at home or at my biz or at anyones that i know that is behind a router/firewall, also runs a software firewall, and keeps up to date anti virus software has ever been hit by a virus. i'm sure it happens, but id like you to tell us all about how it happened and what virus you got. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? my mom has had an emachine $349 pc for about 9 months now that she uses for just two things:

she looks up web pages with internet explorer.
she does email with outlook express.
doesnt do anything else on the pc beside print to a laser that is attached to my dads pc. the inkjet she got is a backup in case the laser dies. or they could give away to a friend or family member in need....

started using a computer at 71 yrs old.

dad has his own computer. (pcs are inexpensive enough that they can each have their own)

the emachine has worked great since day one, no reason to send it back or even call for any type of support.

but back to your claims about apples wonderful warranty:

apple has 90 days of free phone service and and 1 yr of hardware warranty.

http://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/hardware.html

that is the emac warranty, nowhere does it say apple pays for all shipping. in fact they mention they may have you install parts. as i know mac users that have had to pay to ship macs back, your experience with your defective mac is not universal. i do know a mac user that just an ibook back for the defective logic board and apple did a great job and picked up the full expense. the mac user still had a defective mac that took about 10 days to get totally resolved and in the meantime had a very unhappy user experience. first time the mac went beserk, she had to set back to like the day it shipped per apples instructions. only after the problems continued and apple finally set up a program to deal with a serious flaw did they pay to fix it.

actually it says this:

http://www.apple.com/support/emac/service/

"How much will my in-warranty service be?
Warranty service for eligible repairs is available at no charge for twelve months from the date of purchase. However, you will be responsible for all expenses incurred in transporting the eMac to Apple, an AASP or Apple retail store."

are you intentionally trying to distort the truth raptor? or do you feel good cause you got it sent back free with a problem so serious and pervasive that apple is now facing a class action lawsuit?

and not all macs get fixed and sent back via 2 day air service:

"How long will my eMac service take?
Service times often depend on the nature of the issue and the availability of service parts at the service location. Be sure to ask how long service will take when you deliver your eMac for service."

again trying to cover up for very serious failures in macs and to placate potential lawsuits doesnt make for the norm.

as for genius bars: sure we can walk into an apple store if you live near one and get help. sometimes stand in line.

"None of the PC retailers can have that." actually gateway did have stores that provided service. if you buy a pc and go back to just about any retailer you can speak to the sales clerks for help and recommendations. are they geniuses? some, some not.

but nice thing with pcs, since 94% of the world uses them with windows, you can ask just about anyone and find reliable help within a requests. friends, family members, co-workers, neighbors, someone is always around that is intimately familiar with pcs and can provide free help and advice.

one of the main reasons people buy pcs is that they know so many people are close at hand that can help them with training, troubleshooting, repairs, upgrades, assistance with peripheral add ons etc etc. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:09:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? are you intentionally trying to distort the truth raptor?

The apple store will ship it free of charge. Even according to your own reaserch.

"Apple may provide service for your eMac, using one of the following options:

Carry-in Service: Take your eMac to an AASP or Apple retail store near you."

eMachines gives no such options. They don't even have a toll free number!!!!!
Talk about cutting costs.


or do you feel good cause you got it sent back free with a problem so serious and pervasive that apple is now facing a class action lawsuit?

Care to show me data on the class action suit?


i do know a mac user that just an ibook back for the defective logic board and apple did a great job and picked up the full expense. the mac user still had a defective mac that took about 10 days to get totally resolved and in the meantime had a very unhappy user experience. first time the mac went beserk, she had to set back to like the day it shipped per apples instructions. only after the problems continued and apple finally set up a program to deal with a serious flaw did they pay to fix it.

My colleagues iMac had a bad arm mechanism, the display would get lobsided. He took it into the Apple store and instead of having to go through the trouble of dismantling the arm and tightening a nut they gave him a brand new machine. That's service.

Try that with an emachine.

I have had apple give me back $100 or free upgrade to the latest ipod even though I passed the 14 day return period. I bought a 20 GB ipod just before the new one came out.

i am not distorting anything. Apple's service is considered one of the best, In fact, I distinctly remember even you claiming so.

but nice thing with pcs, since 94% of the world uses them with windows, you can ask just about anyone and find reliable help within a requests. friends, family members, co-workers, neighbors, someone is always around that is intimately familiar with pcs and can provide free help and advice.

I do this service too, not only for PCs but Macs, linux and Solaris for family and friends. But I have never had to help my friend with a Mac as much as a friends with PCs. They are on the same scale on the PC literacy level. I have had to reinstall my friends XP install about 4 times int he Past 2 years but haven't touched the Mac, they are roomates.

one of the main reasons people buy pcs is that they know so many people are close at hand that can help them with training, troubleshooting, repairs, upgrades, assistance with peripheral add ons etc etc.

No matter how much I can help them there is no way I can replace defective hardware for free. A good warranty does. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? no comment on the viruses you got huh? fill us in. we need to know so we can figure out how to protect ourselves since you got nailed on a fully protected machine. we must need to take extra steps to feel secure. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:01:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? mac comes with-

Mac OS X version 10.3 "Panther"
Classic environment, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD (doesnt work with most external dvd burners), GarageBand, iSync, iCal, DVD Player, AppleWorks, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Quicken 2004 for Mac,World Book 2004 Edition, Sound Studio,Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, Deimos Rising, Zinio Reader, Apple Hardware Test)

the emachine comes with

windows xp home with service pack 2
windows security center
Microsoft Works 7.0 (includes calendar, document creation, spreadsheets, etc)
Microsoft Money 2004
Encarta Online
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader
Microsoft Media Player 10
Windows Movie Maker 2
Netmeeting
Windows Messenger
Remote Desktop Client
MS Backup
Real Player
PowerDVD
Internet Explorer 6 with pop up blocker
Outlook Express 6
half a dozen games like solitaire and 3d pinball
Windows Update
Windows System Restore
Windows Compatability Mode
Remote Assistance
Synchronize
Wordpad, Notepad, Paint
Norton AntiVirus 2004 (90 day complimentary subscription)
BigFix from emachines (troubleshooting and diagnostic software)

is the mac bundle better out of the box? yes, but only in some ways. in some ways the windows box has better choices.
is it worth a $450 price difference? no
is it worth $250 as raptor claims? no

why? lets take a look.

os x has more powerful features like windows xp pro we say? like a webserver...

get free apache http server...http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi
get free ftp server.... http://www.sofotex.com/Cerberus-FTP-Server-download_L431.html

with windows you also get all of the following for free if you like (see you save $450 and get what you need for free and if it isn't available free you can spend part of that $450 to get only what you need or want):

windows xp power toys
cutepdf pdf creator
free sygate or zone labs firewalls
free anti virus from computer associates my e-trust
free anti virus from mcafee or norton if you watch sales flyers in sunday papers (this can be done annually)
itunes
quicktime
winamp
spybot and/or ad-aware
irfanview
macromedia flash and shockwave
burnatonce cd mastering software
printfolders 2.1
spambayes spam filter
ms expression 3 vector drawing app
ms calculator plus (new, does science, regular math, and conversions)
ms .net framework and sdk
ms plus dancers limited edition
several choices of download managers
ms photo story limited edition
borland c++ ide
openoffice
ms windows media encoder
any of dozens of web browsers including shells for ie that provide tabbed browsing
abiword
ms office viewers for word, excel, and powerpoint.
msde sql database engine
free ftp clients out the wazoo
games for windows are available by the thousands for free off the net
acid express to replace garageband http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/download/freestuff.asp

truth is on a pc running windows you have so many choices for free software i cant even begin to make a list of the quality choices available. and then again on the commercial software side, you have substantially more options for windows and prices are lower as there is more competition within each genre.

we won't even bring up games on windows versus games on a mac.

the idea that apples bundle is worth $250 is patently absurd. truth is apple has to bundle all that stuff due to the limited free choices available on the mac platform. and dont forget iLife isn't free unless you are buying a new mac. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? os x has more powerful features like windows xp pro we say? like a webserver...

OS X is can run on MP machines Xp home can't. The emcachines comes with home not pro, add another $99-$130 to get pro.


truth is on a pc running windows you have so many choices for free software i cant even begin to make a list of the quality choices available. and then again on the commercial software side, you have substantially more options for windows and prices are lower as there is more competition within each genre.

we won't even bring up games on windows versus games on a mac.


Can I recompile any Opensource software that can run on linux/UNIX on windows? No.

Does windows ship with Gcc, Perl? no

Does it ship with a full blown IDE for development? no.

Doe it ship with profilers and development tools like USB probers ? No.

Windows is limited in options.

Can I run Final cut express or Pro? no

Windows is limited on options.

http://versiontracker.com/
http://www.macupdate.com/

Tons of free and shareware software for MacOS X on those two sites. Add to that almost any opensource linux/Unix app via fink.

The choices and freedom on a mac are more. MacOS X can mount any samba share, windows share out-of the box.

Windows Xp can't. Window's Xp doesn't even include an XServer.

OOB MacOS X has better features and no cripled versions like home and pro. One version, One price, all the features.

MacOS X can even mount and use NTFS disks, UFS disks over thier HFS volumes. Windows can't use anything but FAT/FAT32 and NTFS. Again more options.

Before you go and say the average home user doesn't need all that. Let me say I don't need all the crap you just spewed in favor of XP, niether does my wife or friends. But what the average user needs is a machine that "just works" with minimum upkeep and the Mac provides that.

No Xp box does , not even Dells. I rebuilt a dell using thier own install disks and the version of roxio they shipped killed the box every time, I mean come on. This was a dell Dimension 4600 atleast cost the owners $2000.

the idea that apples bundle is worth $250 is patently absurd.

I think the poster put the price of each piece of software against it and a quick search reveals those prices to be accurate.

Care to show otherwise?

What is absurd is your constant ranting on Apple related articles. Especially after many people have objected and you even being banned. Eugenia even confirmed twice that you were infact banned.

You really need professional help. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:05:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "OS X is can run on MP machines Xp home can't. The emcachines comes with home not pro, add another $99-$130 to get pro."

like listing idvd since the base emac has no dvd burner it makes no difference.

who cares if if os x runs on dual cpus, it makes no sense to list that as a feature if the emac doesnt have dual cpus. if you buy a mac with dual cpus you will be buying another copy of os x as well that runs on the dual.

the emachines doesnt have dual cpus so who cares if xp home only runs on its single cpu. you cant add a second cpu to the emachines so it matters not a bit. if you go buy a dual cpu pc it will likewise come with a windows xp pro.

dont bring up an utterly invalid discussion point. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:30:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? who cares if if os x runs on dual cpus, it makes no sense to list that as a feature if the emac doesnt have dual cpus. if you buy a mac with dual cpus you will be buying another copy of os x as well that runs on the dual.

I do. I don't want a crippled OS. Also apple doesn't force with activation so you can use your single license on any box.

dont bring up an utterly invalid discussion point.

Like you bringing up spybot and adaware as examples of the abundant free software available for Windows, Please!!!

There is no need for spy software removal on MacOS X.

Most of the software you listed is avaibale free for MacOS X too. Openoffice, Multiple webrowsers, ftp clients, etc. You can even run kde and gnome on OS X. Should I iterate through the numerous QT and GTK+ apps that come bundled with KDE and GNOME or for them.

You constantly bring absurdly irelevant information to discussions, infact every Apple related discussion on OSNews.

dont forget iLife isn't free unless you are buying a new mac.
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?product...
"Now through September 25, 2004, purchase Mac OS X Panther and iLife '04 together and get $50 back via mail-in rebate."

iLife is free with the purchase of MacOS X. Do you do selective research?? or are you just trying to distort things. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "I do. I don't want a crippled OS. Also apple doesn't force with activation so you can use your single license on any box. "

you can advocate piracy all you like. steal if you want. thief.

"There is no need for spy software removal on MacOS X."

not true, every computer made should run anti virus software, a firewall, and should scan for any type of unwanted material that could get on the machine. anti spyware software is made for mac. is any of it free? av software is made for mac, is any of it free? firewalls are made for mac, are any of them free besides the weak version that apple gives you?

"iLife is free with the purchase of MacOS X. Do you do selective research?? or are you just trying to distort things."

free is free. having to buy a $129 annual os update is not FREE. you have to spend $129 to get the free item. that aint free.

every update to ms messenger, windows movie maker, windows media player, directx, internet explorer, outlook express, etc from ms has been free since windows xp shippped. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? you can buy several choices based on need

buy

xp home if you have basic needs and save money
xp pro if you are on a domain or need remote desktop etc and pay more
xp tablet pc edition if you have need of a tablet
xp media center edition if you will be hooking into entertainment system

ms gives you choices to fit your needs, wants, and budget.

not one catch all solution that costs $129 annually to get new themes added to it and fresh new iapps that are freely available all over the internet. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? http://www.apple.com/promo/addmorelifetoyourmac/

spend $178 now and when it arrives send back mail in rebate for $49 to wind up spending $129.

$129 now equals free.

"Mac OS X v10.3 Panther is the powerful new operating system for the Mac. iLife '04 is a suite of five remarkable applications that let you do amazing things with your music, photos, and movies. Purchase them together from July 12, 2004, through September 25, 2004, and get $50 back via mail-in rebate.*"

if you need to run mac os x on more than one machine the correct thing to do is buy the $199 5 pack, not steal software as AR advocates:

"Or get $80 back via mail-in rebate when you purchase the Mac OSX Panther Family Pack with the iLife '04 Family Pack, which allows you to install Panther and iLife on up to five Apple computers in your home. To find an Apple Authorized Reseller near you visit www.apple.com/buy."

lest we forget, the iapps used to be really free but apple started selling them just like they started selling the formerly free itools as .mac when they got to the point where they have to wring every last cent out of their clients to remain profitable. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:59:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? xp home if you have basic needs and save money
xp pro if you are on a domain or need remote desktop etc and pay more
xp tablet pc edition if you have need of a tablet
xp media center edition if you will be hooking into entertainment system

XP Home is $99, ooh $30 is a great saving over MacOS X.

MacOS X is $129 and does everything, no restrictions. You can get OEM versions for $70 ( full versions).

Ms sells you 10 different things each of which is crippled in a certain way and forces you to pay for it each time you change your hardware.

if you need to run mac os x on more than one machine the correct thing to do is buy the $199 5 pack, not steal software as AR advocates:

No I said you can use a "Single License" on any box (Meaning one). Unlike with XP where you have to reactivate and pay for a full license, in effect paying twice for the same piece of software, just becuase you switched machines.

not one catch all solution that costs $129 annually to get new themes added to it and fresh new iapps that are freely available all over the internet.

Funny I don't remember MacOS X ever having changed themes. Each release has offered excellent features that warranted the price. Not to a troll like you but to Apple's customers. I have never had buyers remorse after a MacOS X update. Can't say the same thing about XP. The first thing I and most users did with XP was remove all the eye candy and make it look like 2000, which imporved performance a great deal.

However, with Panther and Jaguar before it, performance actually imporved on older hardware, unlike any update from MS.

every update to ms messenger, windows movie maker, windows media player, directx, internet explorer, outlook express, etc from ms has been free since windows xp shippped.

Don't even make the mistake of comparing internet explorer, outlook express and messenger to iLife.

iLife offers a lot more. Garageband alone is worth $50.

Every update to any of the iLife is free too. I just downloaded the latest version of iPhoto the other day.

Is longhorn going to be free too???

$129 now equals free.

Follow this simple logic here, you can, can't you?

dont forget iLife isn't free unless you are buying a new mac.
You claimed iLife is only free with new mac hardware( quoted above). I countered that claim by posting a link giving you iLife for free with a purchase of MacOS X. Since MacOS X is not hardware by any stretch of imagination, iLife is also available free without hardware or a new mac.

not true, every computer made should run anti virus software, a firewall, and should scan for any type of unwanted material that could get on the machine. anti spyware software is made for mac. is any of it free? av software is made for mac, is any of it free? firewalls are made for mac, are any of them free besides the weak version that apple gives you?

Care to prove any of this drivel?

Apple's firewall is weak?????!!!! got proof?

Your "any computer made" is laughable at best. Computers are more than just PCs. How about my car's onboard computer does it need an anti-virus too???? How about my phone running Symbian OS??? Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? forgot to mention

xp tablet pc edition if you have need of a tablet
xp media center edition if you will be hooking into entertainment system

Tablet PC and MCE are only available with new hardware purchases. iLife doesn't sound that expensive now does it? Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:53:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "XP Home is $99, ooh $30 is a great saving over MacOS X."

xp home is available for as little as $70 with a media, a license is as cheap as $46 if you have a cd already.

"Ms sells you 10 different things each of which is crippled in a certain way and forces you to pay for it each time you change your hardware."

you call it crippled. the rest of the world that isnt stuck in apples proprietary world calls it freedom of choice.

"No I said you can use a "Single License" on any box (Meaning one). Unlike with XP where you have to reactivate and pay for a full license, in effect paying twice for the same piece of software, just becuase you switched machines."

that statement is so patently stupid it speaks volumes for your ignorance.

"Funny I don't remember MacOS X ever having changed themes. Each release has offered excellent features that warranted the price. Not to a troll like you but to Apple's customers. I have never had buyers remorse after a MacOS X update."

i guess you have been using os x for what 13 months?

ever heard of the aqua and metal themes?

"Can't say the same thing about XP. The first thing I and most users did with XP was remove all the eye candy and make it look like 2000, which imporved performance a great deal."

isnt it nice that ms give its end users choice? try making mac os x look like os 9. no. with the first few years of os x mac users suffered massive performance hits with all the eye candy in os x that they couldnt turn off. if they went out and got haxies that allowed them to do, apple broke them with each point release of os x. apple helping out its users huh?

"Every update to any of the iLife is free too. I just downloaded the latest version of iPhoto the other day."

that is patently wrong. original owners of os x with earlier versions of iapps have to either buy a new mac or pay to upgrade to the newest ilife suite. or as you pointed out apple can herd them along by getting them to buy the newest os x panther for $129 and then ilife is free.

in fact ilife doesnt even work on recently shipping macs in many ways and forces folks to at least upgrade to jaguar:

http://www.apple.com/ilife/

"System Requirements:

* Macintosh computer with a PowerPC G3, G4 or G5 processor
o 600MHz G3 or faster required for GarageBand
o G4 or faster required for GarageBand software instruments
o 733MHz G4 or faster required for iDVD
* 256MB of physical RAM
* Mac OS X v10.2.6 or later (Mac OS X v10.2.8 or later recommended)
* QuickTime 6.4 or later (QuickTime 6.5 included)
* Display with at least 1024-by-768-pixel resolution
* DVD drive required to install GarageBand and iDVD
* 4.3GB of disk space required to install GarageBand, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD; or 250MB to install iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie only."

if you dont have a dvd drive you are out of luck for garageband. if you have recent models of g3 ibooks you are out of luck for some functionality with garageband. idvd is severely crippled unless you have a stock apple superdrive.
you have to use os 10.2.6 or later.

"Apple's firewall is weak?????!!!! got proof?"

does your mac os x built in firewall stop outgoing packets and allow you set up exceptions via a gui interface? no you say? that is weak. i do not believe a single vendor provides one for free that blocks outgoing traffic via a gui interface. if there is one id love to learn about it.

"Your "any computer made" is laughable at best. Computers are more than just PCs. How about my car's onboard computer does it need an anti-virus too???? How about my phone running Symbian OS???"

oh lord now you are going to argue with silly tactics like a 2nd grader. you know what i mean so please dont be immature. we are not discussing car computers or mars rovers. as a matter of fact however, they symbian os does have viruses in the wild...so yes av software is needed for it. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ms is now selling xp media center edition to the oem channel

http://store.viosoftware.biz/wixpmeceedoe.html

"Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004 OEM
Your Price: $140.00
Product ID: X09-91901
Packaging: OEM
Ships: IN STOCK"

and also in case you were unaware, the update to version 2004 was either a free download or ms sent to you by cd for free. the full update is included in the windows xp service pack 2 update. now that is free. free to download. and free to order on cd and ms ships with free shipping. free. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:44:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ar, please dont get all 2nd grade on us

Only with kindergarten kids like you...... Aren't you dillusional to think that you are the forum and that anyone cares for anything you say.

that statement is so patently stupid it speaks volumes for your ignorance.

It looks like you are the ignorant one. But we already knew that.

http://www.networkclue.com/os/Windows/licensing/index.php
"These are called OEM Licenses and of course they come with restrictions. An OEM license only allows you to use the software on the specific computer it came with. In other words, when that computer is old and slow and it is time to throw it away, that license must legally be thrown away as well."

as a matter of fact however, they symbian os does have viruses in the wild...so yes av software is needed for it.

Oh start the crap dispenser again.

Even Anti-virus companies claim that there are no "viruses in the wild" for series 60 smart phones and they have a vested interest.

http://www.siliconstrategies.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml?art...
"A Trojan horse software 'virus' disguised as a popular cell phone game has hit Nokia devices running the Symbian operating system, but security experts say there's no need to panic.
...........
Sophos' Graham Cluley, a senior technology consultant for the security firm, said that there's no need to overreact.
...............
"Obviously the discovery of a Trojan horse that can send expensive SMS text messages is going to generate interest, but it's important to remember that the biggest virus problem remains on conventional desktop Windows PCs," he said. Mosquit only attacks Nokia 60 Series devices running Symbian, and installs only if the user ignores a number of messages warning about the dangers of adding unsigned applications to a phone. ""


i do not believe a single vendor provides one for free that blocks outgoing traffic via a gui interface. if there is one id love to learn about it.

There enlighten yourself. Brickhouse is free, you may pay for it if you want. Brickhouse is just a GUI front end to the features Apple makes availble for free as a part of the OS. Not need to get any onther piece of software.

http://personalpages.tds.net/~brian_hill/brickhouse.html

BTW is there any thing in windows that will let me script GUI actions, ala apples script. Or a Thirda party vendor CLI interface for the firewall.

ms is now selling xp media center edition to the oem channel

Microsoft isn't making MCE to individuals. They are meant for OEMs, a single person
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/howtobuy/default.msp...
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004 is a new Windows XP operating system available only on Media Center personal computers. Tue, 14 Sep 2004 22:03:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "xp home if you have basic needs and save money
xp pro if you are on a domain or need remote desktop etc and pay more
xp tablet pc edition if you have need of a tablet
xp media center edition if you will be hooking into entertainment system"

So if you have an home PC with XP Home, a portable PC with XP Pro, a tablet PC with XP Tablet PC, a media center (anyone have a media center?) with XP Media Center you need FOUR updates. You need to buy only specific updates. Not simple, not fast, not user-friendly.

If you have an eMac G4 as home PC, a PowerBook G4 15" as portable PC, an iBook G4 12" as tablet PC (or an upcoming patented tablet Mac), an iMac G5 20" on the wall as Media Center you need ONLY ONE update. You need to buy a brand new Mac OS X. More simple, more fast, more user-friendly. Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "If you have an eMac G4 as home PC, a PowerBook G4 15" as portable PC, an iBook G4 12" as tablet PC (or an upcoming patented tablet Mac), an iMac G5 20" on the wall as Media Center you need ONLY ONE update. You need to buy a brand new Mac OS X. More simple, more fast, more user-friendly."

With "ONLY ONE update" I don't intend a copy for all, but the same edition of the update. You have more than one Mac you need more than one licence. Anyway, if i remember well, there is a Mac OS X family pack with three or four licences for very good price. YEAH! In fact, you need really ONLY ONE update for all your Macs. :-D Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:38:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? windows listed above are all windows xp.

in case you missed it last month, windows xp service pack 2 updates all 4 versions.

xp home is cheaper than mac os x.
xp pro is more full featured and cheaper and more powerful than os x
xp tablet does things no mac can do
xp media center edition does things no mac can do.

and all of them leave you with more choice than apple. more choices of hardware, more choices of peripherals, more choices of third party software. Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:18:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "i do not believe a single vendor provides one for free that blocks outgoing traffic via a gui interface. if there is one id love to learn about it.

There enlighten yourself. Brickhouse is free, you may pay for it if you want. Brickhouse is just a GUI front end to the features Apple makes availble for free as a part of the OS. Not need to get any onther piece of software."

brickhouse is old. brickhouse isnt free.

http://personalpages.tds.net/~brian_hill/brickhouse.html

"BrickHouse is a shareware product.
The cost is $25 per machine."

"1.1b6 10/7/2001
Built for OSX 10.1. Many new features and bug fixes. See the ReadMe file for complete details."

it hasn't been updated in three years! it has serious compatability issues with more modern versions of os x like jaguar and panther.

"you may pay for it if you want." that meets with this from his site: " If you like BrickHouse, you should pay the shareware fee to help ensure future development of the product." since not enough paid for it, it hasnt been updated in 3 years.

and finally brickhouse isnt a firewall per se. it is simply a front end.

also note that brian hill hasnt updated any of his programs for a 14 months now. guess too many people are like you and are into stealing software and not paying for shareware.

"BTW is there any thing in windows that will let me script GUI actions, ala apples script. Or a Thirda party vendor CLI interface for the firewall."

yes to all the above.

"Microsoft isn't making MCE to individuals."

i assume you mean selling instead of making. i guess you were unable to follow the link i provided above where you can buy an oem copy for $140. Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:23:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I agree with those who say this advice to Apple is misconceived.
The automobile analogy is apt - although B.M.W. is not the best comparison
to Apple.
The Mac is rather more like the Volvo of computing.
A reliable product with high resale value and styling which has remained
distinctive while more expensive brands have conformed to the stylist
standards set by the cheaper brands; and which appeals to the more educated
part of the high end market.
To say the Apple is failing because it does not have the strength of a
company such as Dell or I.B.M. misses the point.
Volvo doesn't have the strength of Mitsubishi or G.M., but that doesn't mean
that Volvo is not a household name brand or that the company is in any
trouble.
G.M. makes trucks, busses, locomotives, and many other things besides cars;
measures of its success must be made on all of its subsidiaries.

The gentleman who insisted that Apple should simply liquidate or become a
holding company is mistaken.
The most important asset Apple has is its brand name - which would become
worthless if it left the industry.
It's remarkable that any company could go from 2O% to 3% of its market and
still have the most recognizable name in the industry.
Also, to that gentleman from the 3rd World country who opined that places
such as his don't need fancy, stylish, expensive machines such as the
current Macs, well sir, just why are Mercedes Benzs and other such fancy,
stylish, expensive machines in such demand in countries such as his?
I'd say this means that the general idea which most of us have of the
personal computer industry is false.

What seems to be forgotten in most discussions of the industry and Apple's
part in it is that personal computers are, first and foremost, business
machines.
Most P.C.s are bought be businesses.
Probably most of the difference in the 2O% - 3% change in Apple's market
share is not P.C.s replacing older Apple machines, but companies which are
beginning or expanding their use of computers.
Those using these new P.C.s have no say in what kind of machines they use or
for what purpose.

The development of P.C.s - except for the Internet - is most closely related
to that of the typewriters they replaced.
The typewriter was always primarily designed and sold to businesses.
Training to use typewriters properly was a skill which required a real
effort to master, was no intuitive - nor designed to be, and was not
primarily aimed at the owning or professional classes.
By the time computers were ready to take over the functions of the
typewriter, typewriters were regularly being pushed to college bound and
well off high school students as a must-have acoutrement to the successful
student.
No professional home, office, or den was without one.

Similarly, P.C.s may be pitched to households and schools, but their design
is dictated by the requirements of business.
P.C. system makers have fallen by the way side almost precisely to the
extent that they relied on householders and hobbyists rather than
businesses.
The Coleco, Atari, and the Amiga had, in that order, large home user to
business user ratios.
Apple could have been next.

On the other side, companies such as D.E.C., Silicon Graphics, and Sun have
been edged out or are on the ropes because they focussed only on high end
business niches.
Only Sun's server business in the Internet services bubble has kept it from
being pushed out of the P.C. business; its work stations are not in high
demand.
Apple could have been next.

That Apple has not followed either the household-focussed or
industry-focussed companies into oblivion or obsurity suggests it has made
more than one right move over the last 2O years.
Giving into the demands of the commercial artists for greater speed or to
the demands of householders for a cheap computer for the kiddies would be a
big mistake.
Instead, the facts I've cited above suggest that Apple should take the
opposite advice and appeal more certainly to the guys at the tops of
companies, small businesses, and well-off households.

Apple has been incompatible with Intel hardware and Intel-based software
since the beginning.
Those who want such compatibility will go with Wintel; it only makes sense.
I suggest that P.C.I. slots and I.D.E. connection be abandoned by Apple.
Offer 4 different chassis: an expensive laptop, a cheap laptop, an expensive
desktop, and a cheap desktop.
Offer 4 or so main boards: one for general use, one with 2 C.P.U.s, one with
specialized inputs and chips for commercial video and/or audio production,
and maybe one specialized for industrial control.
These 4 main boards would all be the same size and would fit any of the
chassis.

This approach will streamline production and eliminate the problems which
outside hardware always causes.
All someone who wants to change the specs on his or her Mac need do after
this would be to swap out the main board.
A decent trade-in policy on boards would make the process relatively
economical.

Along with this, pushing its O.S. towards peer-to-peer networking and
persistent computer would help undermine the server-centric model which
helps keep Apple out of many businesses.
A rugged peer-to-peer system would be a god send to those small businesses
which don't have regular I.T. staff to keep their servers running as well as
those where there is not enough redundancy to keep all services going when
there is a server failure.

Finally, I don't think I write only for myself when I point out that this
article has the same suggestions and presuppositions as many other articles
on the same subject over the last IO years.
That Apple continues to be a household name when companies on all sides of
it in the industry have lost out is a credit to it.
Eugenia, I really think that it's time to give the 'Apple should make its
computers cheaper and/or more like Wintel' thing a rest - a long rest! Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:48:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? "The automobile analogy is apt - although B.M.W. is not the best comparison
to Apple."

BMW is a long time customer of Apple. In USA there was a TV slogan for the BMW 3 Series Cabrio many years ago: YOUR HARDWARE RUN BETTER WITHOUT WINDOWS. The Apple-BMW analogy isn't for nothing. :-D

"The Mac is rather more like the Volvo of computing."

Interesting view. Anyway, Volvo is owned by Ford Motor Company. :-D
Apple is itself a group. BMW is itself a group, too. Volvo is a part of another group. Again, the Apple-BMW analogy isn't for nothing. :-) Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:32:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? I didn't know that about Volvo.
Well, I guess I know why the car companies here in the U.S.A. stopped complaining about car imports - now they own some of the importers!

Just change the analogy to Apple and Saab then.
Seriously, the reasons computers are purchased are rather like the way the American electorate chooses candidates; little to do with what the candidates actually say or what the party platforms are.
It's all either pure pragmatics or prejudices the buyer or voter wouldn't or couldn't talk about to an interviewer. Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:12:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? ... but Saab is owned by General Motors, like Opel. :-) Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:52:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Bugger...where's an indendent car company when you need one! Fri, 17 Sep 2004 04:35:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Your idea is interesting but I'd like ot add another idea.
Apple's competition in the market is not Dell or HP but the white box market. Moreso worldwide than in the US. You need to take your idea down even further along the hardware chain. They should just be selling motherboards that can run OSX. A full and vibrant OSX. That should be the core of the business. Anyone with cash can buy these boards. They can produce a multitude of boards. From a 500Mhz G3, one AGP slot, one PCI slot motherboard to a Quad G5 6 PCI-X latest and greatest video slot motherboard. Sell to the white box stores and let them add value by adding their own hard drives and CD burnres and DVD burners. and whatnot.
The market that this creates would be large. The white box guys are always looking for ways to differentiate themselves. This would be it.
For Apple to not have to worry about the brand they can resurrect Power Computing. They bought out that brand and retired it. The whole Power Computing infrastucture could be devoted to maintaining the hardware part of it. They could even sell their own custom kits as well as the motherboards.
I may never buy a Power Computing computerfor myself. But I might buy one for my Mom. She's not making "Sky Captain" anytime soon, but she will love iSight and my new nephew. From a marketing and strategic point. Apple would be able to control the amount of cannibalization of it's higher priced items, But it should make up for that in Software updates and the like. Remember you may spend $399 on this machine but two years down the road, You've bought two OSX updates, and two iLife upgrades, another 350 bucks. Make .Mac a slightly better proposition and Apple can sell services worth more than the PC machines initial purchase price. Throw in VOIP/iSight/Mac-Phone packages for the masses and business and you've really got something. And as much as Apple thinks that these machines will hurt their higher end machines. No CEO, CFO is going to be using a white box machine. You know their ego is going to have them get the latest and greatest Apple hardware. Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:28:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? Hah, the story is not on the osnews front page anymore for days now so no one reads it anymore. It seems that a mac site has a link, and it's just mac people replying here. Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:26:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments http://osnews.com/thread? http://osnews.com/thread? >> Can someone tell the reasoning, why Pegasos doesn't seel (as
>> far as I know) their motherboards as full systems, with all
>> you need, and both Linux + MorphOS preinstalled?

> Genesi doesn't do, right. But most resellers offer
> prebuilt machines with OSes (MOS and Linux) and Software
> preinstalled.

https://www.pegasosppc.com/store.php

Look at the Open Desktop Workstation (and also at the "Pegasos Server") to the right for some pre-configured systems!

:-) Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:51:00 GMT donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) Comments