OSNews:

what happened to teh other article?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:38:00 GMT

I assume it was removed because it was posted before anyone saw the stream of thought quality?

Low paying jobs

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:44:00 GMT

It's unfortunate to be stuck in crappy jobs. You have to realize, however, that the fault is with you. I work in a crappy job, too. I work in telephone relay where I mindlessly repeat whatever I hear.

I get paid poorly. The reason is that so many people can do my job! If you work a job like tech support, relay, or fast food, you have to realize that you're not unique. Employers have a lot to choose from and it's supply and demand.

So bottom line: stop whining and go advertise yourself for what you are really worth. Get a job where you are needed and respected. Tech support is not that job.

Re: Low paying jobs

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:46:00 GMT

You are too harsh. Tech support should not be in the same boat as fast food. It is not easy to be a good tech support.

Is this a report about a Call Center in India?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:52:00 GMT

.... at least it sounds like this.

RE:Josh B (IP: 69.158.147.---)

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:53:00 GMT

Correct. It's not. I also disagree with the "your fault" tag. Yeah it's not most people's dream job. However that's not a good excuse for it being a crappy job. And as long as there are people ready to justify poor working conditions. It will never get better.

Sounds... familiar.

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:54:00 GMT

There are companies like this everywhere. In fact practically all companies are like this. Upper management is disconnected and driven by greed whilst the people who do real work aren't even allowed to do the job properly. The sick little number game is the false metric for "success" and punishes real success. It's amazing how these businesses survive at all.

This is just like the place my dad works at, which is not in the computer industry and not a call centre, but the situation is the same.

I really don't know how you have such an optimistic work ethic. Those bastards don't deserve anyone's hard work and attention.

Josh B

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:55:00 GMT

Yes it is, because few companies want "good" tech support. They want "get that jerk customer off the phone asap" tech support.
Anybody can lie.

You have some great points.

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:58:00 GMT

I just finished a laptop project for a big schoolboard of Quebec. Needed to setup 600 laptops for 3 schools and build the wi-fi ap's theres 22 of them.

They expected 6 months for completion I did it in 4 months. Alot of times the work was done in my home basement for readyness the next day.

No bonuses where granted, rewards. Just a pat on the back and acknowledgement from the IT staff at main office. I felt great for been recognnized, but this is a major project for the schools to be ported to mobile solutions seen how no room was left for old donation machines.

As of now I work at Enzyme QA & Localization gaming development. I took a big pay cut from that but I had enough of been pushed around like a dog.

You see it's the little things that make or break you're day.

I feel for this man in his field. Tech support doesnt have to mean been over a phone. On the road to customers such and such, have to be in constant communications with the network guys so they know whats going.

Stressfull indeed but hey, I found something I love now. Gaming Full Time

You're lucky

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:12:00 GMT

Quit your bitching. You're lucky to have a job. Soon your job will be outsourced to India and and you'll be back working at McDonalds!

skills

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:21:00 GMT

Maybe you'd have a better job if you took some english classes. Grammer mistakes all over the place and some sentances do not even make sense. You need to learn some job skills beyond answering a phone and reading a script, anyone can do that.

Again about it being "your fault"

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:27:00 GMT

Republican and Satanic ideology states that YOU are responsible for what YOU do. Realize this and change your life. Go to College, do whatever you have to do to improve yourself. Don't whine and cry because you have it bad. Move to another location, even another country if you are so upset. YOU make your own fate, YOU are the most important thing in YOUR life. I personally wouldn't deal with that sh*t. That's business and that's life. Why waste time posting here and instead do something with your frustration?

Businessmen are sharks, you have to learn how to swim, and take bites. Whining and disconnect will only get you fired or keep you in the same position for life. If the job is dead end, see that for what it is. Don't just sit there!

Re: skills

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:27:00 GMT

Well... let me start by saying that you (Me (IP: ---.com)) are a walking example of the saying "Kettle calling the pot back."

May I recommend that you apply your own advice and start learning some GRAMMAR so you can write correct SENTENCES in the near future?

Well....

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:33:00 GMT

>>>It's unfortunate to be stuck in crappy jobs. You have to realize, however, that the fault is with you...The reason is that so many people can do my job! If you work a job like tech support, relay, or fast food, you have to realize that you're not unique. Employers have a lot to choose from and it's supply and demand.Quit your bitching. You're lucky to have a job. Soon your job will be outsourced to India and and you'll be back working at McDonalds!GrammER mistakes?

Been there, done that...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:39:00 GMT

I did the call center thing a while back, for a big name computer company that was bought out by another one...

When I started, we were encouraged to do whatever was needed to get a customers problems solved. If they could dream it up, we would try to solve it, and failing that, direct them to the appropriate solutions. It slowley changed, and by the time we were aquired, we were down to the whole "get them off the phone as fast as possible" mode.

This could still be manipulated to our advantage, I had things down to an art by then, so if it were not for the random 2-3 hour call(just because, I could have had them call back, but they would have been adrift), then I would have had only 5-6 minutes talk time average, and yet still fixed the problems.

Anyway, when I was laid off, we were there just to be a number on the phone and get rid of people with any line we could dream up.

I now at least work at a tech company that lets me find a solution to the problems when they come up(and I can get my hands on hardware that's acting up, that drove me bonkers).

Anyway... enough of that rant...

JC

Conflicts of Interest

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:44:00 GMT

He told me that he didnt care if these problems are solved, he wants those numbers higher or I'm gonna be on probation.

This conflict of interest exists because nobody's checking customer satisfaction.

To increase my numbers I would hang up on about twelve to fifteen people on the que and wait till they call back.

The company at which I worked tech support monitored calls, and would have taken a dim view of employees doing this. But since your company didn't seem to care about customer satisfaction, no harm no foul.

Managers play this number game and for the most part thats all what matters to them.

The tragedy of metrics is that they will give you only the numbers you're looking for, and not necessarily the ones you really want.

So I'd suggest finding another job or forming a union.

New line of work

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:50:00 GMT

I work at an outsourced call centre in Canada. I believe that 1,000 American jobs at $15 US/hr is worth more than 1,000 Canadian jobs at $10 CDN/hr. Working at an *outsourced* call centre goes against my ethics and I will likely be leaving soon.

Globalization is the biggest danger to Western civilization today, outsourcing being especially damaging because first world countries are also the most expensive to live in.

It sounds like Mr. Cabana just doesn't like his job. Call centre jobs are a dime a dozen. I could quit or be fired today, and would probably find a better paying job the very next day. It sounds like he's been through a few call centres already, so more likely it's time for a career change! Everyone goes through this in their life. If you don't like how the customer service industry works, vote with your job.

P.S. I just read the post above me, forming a union is a GREAT idea too! A lot of work, but it's a good way of sticking it to abusive companies.

re

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:03:00 GMT

Ah, Im sorry, whining was not my intention. I actually love my job. I just wanted to paint a picture of todays industry. Your opinions on the matter are all welcome.

Cute

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:10:00 GMT

Wow, someone just discovered capitalism!

Ok, young grasshopper first you need to know the basic fact of social existance: fight the system and the system will crush you. Yes not just nazis and commies crack down on the resistance. If you want a good life in a capitalist system you have to act like a capitalist. Change your focus. Doing honest productive work is not the captialist way. Try making money instead. Forget about the customers. You're the only person who matters (maybe it's time to read some Ayn Rand). Ignore the damage your actions may cause - profit is the only thing that matters (learn from the upper management guys). Honestly do you believe the right-wing BS about how capitalism rewards the hard-working and capable? It rewards the cunning shameless bastards I tell you. Be one and you'll have all the free time and the money you want.
An OSnews related example: Why do you think Bill Gates is the richest man on the planet? Because he's the best programmer?! Because he works/worked harder than everyone else? *ROFL*
Remember "cunning shameless bastard" (oh, and be criminal too: I'm willing to bet my right hand that among the TOP 10.000 there's not a single guy who never engaged in criminal activities)

alabama tech support

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:20:00 GMT

There are some call centers here in alabama
for the biggest name in home computers now

They are so good as to pay us 6.50 to 7 an hour
no paid time off , no vacation time off
no dental plan , as well we can not choose our own
schedules or breaks

and it is not a matter of what you know
its a matter of how nice you can sound to get the customer off the line
They also have such generous bonuses as printouts that say "KUDOS" and at best a free personal pan pizza.....bite sized almost

And as i have come to find out, it would seem they have a right to fire anyone at anytime with no reason
even if the handbook says differently

People , dont believe it when they say its a career and not a job.....its not even a job , you get better respect working fast food

Re: Skills - by "Me"

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:22:00 GMT

There's an old saying: People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Or at least, if you're going to call someone out on his spelling and grammar, at least spell-check your own comment first.

Not again!

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:37:00 GMT

Oh joy another unrelated post!!

www.osandlotsofotherrubbishnews.com

Re: Cute

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:40:00 GMT

Max wrote:
>>> Wow, someone just discovered capitalism!

I really wish people would do a little research on what capitalism is before they go on and on about it.

Let's Be Objective

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:46:00 GMT

I agree with you Scott. I think there are many managers who treat their employees like shite. There are also many professions that are severly underappreciated and underpaid. Personally, I highly value talented technical support staffers. They can save a company money in the form of employee productivity that is otherwise lost. I agree with something Mike briefly hinted upon -- automation. Most modern call center software, such as Peregrine ServiceCenter, generates and stores an evolving repository of technical knowledge that can be instantly recalled by a call center technician. Unfortunately, this has also decreased reliance upon call center employee technical knowledge and ability, which is now neatly consolidated and condensed. The bottom line is that it's not that the job is "crappy". However, technology will continue to automate business processes, decreasing the demand for employee knowledge and skills. Think about that from an economics perspective -- the supply of potential job candidates increases exponentially. The demand drops along with pay. Do you work in a business function whose core processes are highly susceptible to automation? If so, you should look at the current trends (outsourcing) and think about the long-term effects (low pay, elimination). Leverage your experience to find a position within the same company with better long-term stability, or switch career fields altogether. Bullethead's advice was right-on. Make things happen instead of letting things happen.

ermm

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:52:00 GMT

I was in a small company doing sorta battery farm support back in 2000/2001, but there were good ppl there and much to learn.

by 2001 it sucked so i left and a few months later got a job (for bigger bucks) with a bigger company starting out, so the tech team was small. 6 months later that sucked too, as job out sourced to cheaper part of uk & rubbish customer service job offered .. so i left.

year later i got a better job for a tiny isp doing a mix of support(mainly) but also a lot of web work, basic admin(identify fix and let someone else confirm & fix), basic network support and a bucket load of projects to get involved with.

the story ... as someone else said .. you sit still your job becomes more and more of a commodity that any idiot can do, so you gotta keep learning & keep moving on to better things!

We need a freakin' union.

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:56:00 GMT

Everybody should read this book:

Hotlines - Call Center Inquiry
http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/kolinko/lebuk/e_lebuk.htm

It's a study by a bunch of german council communists of call centers around the world, the conditions within them, and the possiblities of tech center organizing. So far, it's an incredibly interesting read, and should be required reading for anybody who wants to figure out how to deal with these modern day sweatshops. Unfortunately, the group that wrote it are anti-union communists, so they don't really explore unionization possibilitiies very deeply.

It's amazing that we haven't had a huge unionization push yet. Us tech center workers need career path options, we need a grievance committee, we need access to proper training, and we need some kind of ability to stand up for ourselves.

It's all about levels

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:02:00 GMT

I hate calling my cable company when I am having internet problems. They force me to due stupid things, following a proper sequence.

Now I have worked my way past those "script kiddies" and talked to a real tech support person. With his help we reconfigured my router(unsupported) to work properly,and found a virus that was choking down my internal network from my roommates laptop. Shuting down that laptop and the reconfigure restored my network.

Also if he hadn't heard, $11-15 an hour though chump change in the NE, it's also base salary rates. I get only $12 hour plus 3-7 hours of overtime everyweek. I haven't gotten an actual raise in 4 years. Do I complain? Nope. Why not becuase the company also gives me full health insurance whic would add nearly $3 an hour ever week to my paycheck. And every year that goes up 10-15% more. I never see it so i don't pay taxes on it.

RE: Innominandum (IP: ---.205-206-12-0.interbaun.com)

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:02:00 GMT

"It sounds like Mr. Cabana just doesn't like his job. Call centre jobs are a dime a dozen. I could quit or be fired today, and would probably find a better paying job the very next day. It sounds like he's been through a few call centres already, so more likely it's time for a career change! Everyone goes through this in their life. If you don't like how the customer service industry works, vote with your job. "

So the obvious question when someone says something like the above is. Why don't you? People would obviously never take crappy jobs, if that "better paying job" was so easily available. Sounds like a reality check is in order.

RE: daysofthegun (IP: 63.169.70.---)

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:08:00 GMT

"It's amazing that we haven't had a huge unionization push yet. Us tech center workers need career path options, we need a grievance committee, we need access to proper training, and we need some kind of ability to stand up for ourselves."

Look at what's happening in the airline industry. Unions are under assault.

I agree

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:16:00 GMT

I agree with most of the people here. Call centers are based around metrics, other than that management generally doesn't care about the customer. I am a low level manager in a tech support position for a major computer manufacturer. Everything is so disorganized, it's insane anything gets done. The problem with it, is that you get paid 7-9 dollars an hour, the employees simply do not care, and people with enough knowledge of computers have jobs that pay better, or simply not willing to work for that wage. Therefore, we end up with people who are not knowledgable, and aren't paid enough to take the initiative to learn the material. Instead they read the scripts given to them from a large web database, that a lot of the times doesn't make sense. Also they don't provide the people with any sort of rewards for doing a good job, except like scott said, a mug or maybe some candy.

This needs to change, because I consistantly read about how awful tech support is in general from numerous sources. Customer will call, get a tech, they won't know what to do and around they go until finally they get a tech that actually is familiar with computers, and it's fixed in 3 minutes. People that are happy to come to their job, leads to people that are more willing to help the customer to solve their issue.

Anyways, I'm rambling, and I hope things change, or I personally might have to find another job. Yes it's a job, not a career. Technical knowledge means nothing in management, its your ability to meet the higher ups metrics.

not all call centers good

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:52:00 GMT

We do a lot of buisness with DeLL, and it sux badly. We have hundreds of big servers and pay for same day service (3 hour support it is called). It sux, for example one time one server bluescreened always during install, the call center "dude" actually asked if both power supplies were connected, because Windows 2003 used more electricity during install. What is wrong with this picture, and 99% we end up getting a technician to change a faulty mobo next day or the day after. I have personally Apple Powerbook 17", it broke, I called apple, the guy was very good, and next day (tuesday) I got a box sent to ship my computer in, it was sent to Holland (Nederland) from Norway, and I got it fixed on thursday, no probb, and I did not pay anything for this. This kind of service and knowledge is incredible at apple, I have called them back numerous times to set up my GPRS and such, never an issue. And after this I bought an Apple Care, worth every dime.

Dell is cheap HW, crappy service, you get what you pay for thats for sure

easy option makes sense many

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:38:00 GMT

I've been through this problem working in tech support. At the end of the day management find it easier to make changes from a top to bottom perspective. They'll make the system so that they can use their metrics. If all the support is crap then those numbers have meaning and they don't have to bother with a complex analysis of how to drive the quality forwards. A quality service has value, however few managers are ready to get into such a complex game, nor do many have the technical competence.

3 months

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:40:00 GMT

a few years ago i did call support for 3 months and looked for every change te get another job. now i'm a sysadmin, and that is a lot better. doing call support is a very hard job, you learn a lot, but don't stick too long in it, because then it's hard to get out of it. get some certification of better diploms, some speficic knowledge, and get out...

7 years, huh

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:51:00 GMT

Considering the spelling, grammar, punctionation, lack of a spellchecker, and phrases like "I ain't gonna..." its no wonder he's stuck in a shitty job and is still in technical support after 7 years. Perhaps he should get a college degree. Or at minimum, a dictionary.

Move up and out

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:55:00 GMT

No way this is not going to sound harsh but its your fault. If you had any ambition or willingness to learn new things you would be in a higher level IT position right now. If you can be easily replaced then you aren't worth much in the U.S. Get a certification, go to school at night, make yourself more valuable. Use Tech support as a stepping stone not as just what you do. BTW I went to school full time and worked full time after getting out of the Marines and I keep up on certifications and technical skills. I started doing PC support and am now a Senior Architect at a very large Bank so I'mm putting my money where my mouth is when I tell you this.

re: 7 years, huh

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:55:00 GMT

Most nerds/geeks/computer aficionados could give half a crap about grammar. Why spend all your time learning the English language when you could be learning languages important to you i.e. PHP. Perl, XML, etc.

And who needs a dictionary these days? They have this thing called dictionary.com! =D

---

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:08:00 GMT

This is what happened in my past two jobs: there was a great environment and suddenly a new person came in to upper management and decided that profit was #1 at the expense of everything else. When deadlines are drawn closer quite significatively from what it used to be (considering they were quite appropriate), then everyone has to start cutting corners. Ultimately, everyone suffers because the quality goes down and now you have more to repair; this includes customers, employees and the company as such too. In both instances, I just chose to quit. I am now much more clear of the type of environment I want to work in. Please note that I have worked successfully in high stress environments. But there is a difference when the pressure is healthy or not, namely, when management recognizes and works to alleviate the problem vs. management itself being a source of unnecessary stress. I can take stress due to market conditions, angry customers, etc. But slaving out just to fill other's coffers without them caring about providing a better work environment? No, sir. I respect myself.

This was my criteria last time: find a job with moderate or high pay that allows time for myself (read: overtime is not eternal) and that management knows how to balance customers vs. employees vs. finances through action and not just by mouth. Why, I was supervisor for about half year and I worked with this balance system in mind. After I left (for reasons totally different from which I touch on here), the employees on my department agreed that they enjoyed working with me because I put the human side into consideration too. So, let me say this again: find a healthy job environment -- they DO exist.

Master of the Obvius

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:09:00 GMT

"Most nerds/geeks/computer aficionados could give half a crap about grammar. Why spend all your time learning the English language when you could be learning languages important to you i.e. PHP. Perl, XML, etc. "

Well if you want to be a code monkey all your life with your job subject to being shipped off to India at any time then you don't need no grammar or speling. Right. if you want to move up and be a software architect or Manager then you better be able to communicate. Even as a developer you need to be able to communicate what you are doing with co-workers and business people.

It's all about how much the company cares

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:11:00 GMT

I am a manager of a Call Center for a pretty large organization and I think our Call center is great. The starting pay (which no one is at anymore) is $16.50/hour, but the average is almost $20/hour. We provide paid holidays, vacation, and 12 sick days a year. We have full medical benefits, including dental and vision, and a retirement plan. All of my Call Center reps are A+ and ACDT (Apple Certified Desktop Technician), and I have an MCSE and an ACSA. I have not had anyone leave in 3 years. The main reason for this is because we realized about 5 years ago that we could do a better job for less money than the company we were outsourcing to. In fact the old outsourced call center had 20 people on the phones and service was horrible. When I started ours, internally, I made sure I had knowledgeable and friendly staff, padi them well, and we are doing a much better job than the old one with only 8 people. By the way we are supporting over 40,000 computers, both Mac and PC in over 200 locations. And by making this internal we were able to cut our budget by over $150,000/year.

2% RAISE

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:15:00 GMT

damn, i'd like a 2% raise every year, and a bonus - what's that?!

you can keep the plastic mugs though....

re

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:20:00 GMT

Because managers looking at your reports or work, Will look down on your ability to not write the language. Which ends up meaning that you don't get promoted.

re

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:21:00 GMT

A Davis- I will take an oath that from this time forward my grammer and spelling will no longer be faulty. I do admit guilt. Just so you know, I am no longer stuck in that job my rant speaks of. My gosh I wrote that at 5am, give me a break. If grammer and spelling are this important to you, go read a book not a forum. I wanted to start a discussion not a string of insults.

@peragrin

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:27:00 GMT

"Now I have worked my way past those "script kiddies" and talked to a real tech support person. With his help we reconfigured my router(unsupported) to work properly,and found a virus that was choking down my internal network from my roommates laptop. Shuting down that laptop and the reconfigure restored my network."

Why do you feel your cable company owes you this? They supply your cable connection. It's clear from your post that your cable connection was functioning entirely well throughout the process. The cable company has precisely zip to do with your router or your roommate's laptop. You were extremely fortunate to find a tech support guy knowledgeable enough, kind enough and secure enough in his job to do you the *favour* of giving you this level of support. When I worked for a cable company I did the same thing occasionally, but by the company's policy and by sheer common sense it's clear there was no obligation - moral, legal or otherwise - on me to do so. To make an analogy, it's like expecting the water company to come over and fix your taps if they break.

There's more to it than that.

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:34:00 GMT

I've worked in Tech support in various roles for the past 10 years. Generally I've found the bigger mega corporations are the ones that treat support crappy. The companies with < 400 employees generally treat their staff like humans and a tech gets to know nearly everyone. For the bigger companies the structure is very rigid and impersonal. You're treated like a number. Come in, do your 8 / 9 hours, get paid, go home. Your pay is in a certain band and it won't change if your crap or brilliant so why exel? You're just one of 20 guys doing the same job and you can be replaced easy. For the smaller companies you're one of one or two guys and they realise that it will cost them money if they treat you crap.

Take Risks

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:34:00 GMT

I had a similiar experience working for a call center after Y2K. I was working in the midwest at the time and was paid 8.50/hr. The job was OK but not fulfilling so I quit. I took a job in the South which did not work out well and was laid off. I eventually ended up in the DC area and learning from my past mistakes I asked for a salary which was more than I was worth. At my annual review I would always ask for more but I had always been more than capable of doing the work and expanding on my job. Last year I took a chance and joined a consulting company that gave me a 10K increase over what I was making at my last job.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you want more pay you have to be willing to take greater risks. For salaries always negotiate more than you are worth and know what your salary ceilings are for your position. When you reach those ceilings or find that their are certain people or things in your organization that will stand in the way of your financial progress then you need to deal with those situations or leave for a better place.

I'm also fortunate enough to live in a place that places a lot of value in my skills so that is part of it.

RE: 2% RAISE

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:39:00 GMT

When you talk about % raises your basically beating around the bush. Money talks, asking for $4000 upfront tells people who they are dealing with.

Thats another things, people don't ask for what they want. If you feel like you will get rejected, ask anyway! You may be surprised.

The IT industry is past the growth stage...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:42:00 GMT

The industry is consolidating.

We all watched the industry go through the growth stage, and we all ought to be able to accept that that stage has passed.

Even people at the "top of the ladder" are trying to figure out what to do next. No one really seems to be able to put their finger on what the next major enterprise is going to be.

Anyway, the nation is flooded... massively flooded... with educated and experienced people capable of doing IT related work, DBA's, engineers, help desk technicians, network managers, etc.

All these jobs are akin to the description of how call center people are treated. Long hours, unrealistic timeline and deployment expectations, pay cuts moving from job to job rather than the increases people use to be able to chase.

I work as a senior software engineer. I'm in charge of an entire product line at my company, and still at least once a year management comes down from on high and tries to assess if we should look to outsourcing our development and QA to India. The only thing that keeps it from happening is that we offer several customized solutions and rapid development schedules for some of our customers, and moving development overseas would put an end to this with the current methods and practices used for managing foreign IT related work forces. However over time people figured out how to offer diverse and custom solutions from overseas in the manufacturing industry, and we'll eventually see the same thing happen in the tech industry.

Despite how "high level" my job is... I know that it isn't safe. What's more, I don't expect it to be. This is the attrition of a changing economy. If there were a forum of tens of thousands of Blacksmiths getting all upset because everyone drives cars now and hardly anybody needs them to make horseshoes anymore we'd all just stare at them cross-eyed and chuckle.

If you really really really like being a tech support person then you need to follow the jobs to where they are. Just like if you really really really like being titanium mill worker you'd have to do the same. That might mean going somewhere outside of the US... if that doesn't strike you well, then you're other option is to accept your spot at the diminishing bottom of the totem poll, or find something else to do.

I couldn't bring myself to vote for either Bush or Kerry because neither of them really want to let go of where the US used to be, and really understand the massive growth and evolution happening in China and India. We need to look at that economic revolution in progress and figure out how we can benefit most from it, and trying to keep a bunch of jobs here in the states at inflated pay scales that just don't make sense to have here anymore is the exact opposite direction we should be looking.

I understand people's resistance to change... especially when it means they're the ones who are going to have to change, but it's either that or be relegated to the dust bin. In order to stay ahead you have to be able to reinvent yourself.

It drives me nuts when I see things like people saying, "I've been a machinist for 25 years damn it! I deserve to be treated better than this. They sent my job overseas, and there's no more work for me." That same person should be thinking... "Hell, they didn't really need me for about the last decade and a half, I should have realized that and taken steps over the last 15 years to avoid the fallout I'm dealing with now."

Anyway... as far as IT goes I'm pretty far up the ladder, and my job isn't safe... so what am I doing about it? Well I've always been intrigued by the state of the human condition, so I'm trying to see about going back and getting a PhD in behavioral psychology so that I can get into the field of behavioral research.

Cheers!

One more thing...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:51:00 GMT

When I really start to think about it... most jobs in most fields today are basically the same. We're almost all just "technical button pushers". We make up the last thin layer of existence in the enterprises in which the computer can't make a decision for itself.

Be that data entry, taking in information from a random person, writing computer programs, running financial equations, etc.... whatever.

It's going to be that way in any job where you are a human there to feed a machine. If you don't want to be a part of that spinning wheel then I'd suggest teaching, clinical work, research, business ownership, etc. You need to be able to be a thinker and hire the doers... rather than always being the doer yourself.

Cheers Again!

Funny this is a subject... Check out my Blog...

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:56:00 GMT

I posted about this very item with my post on The Big Suck and Swallow in IT... Feel free to check it out at my Blog. I wrote it in December 04 and it was a long time coming. It fits this subject perfectly.

Sorry forgot Link and no Edit button.

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:57:00 GMT

Shoot forgot to place my Blog address. www.kmaximo.blogspot.com

NTL are absolute dire and incompetent

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:07:00 GMT

I've had my fair share of experience, but the worst of all by far are NTL. These people are absolutely ignorant, rude, and many are just blatantly incompetent and couldn't care less.
I ended up phoning them approx 30 times and emailing 70 messages to sort out a simple problem.
On one day, I spoke to the same guy twice, in the morning it was sorted but then he later phoned me and asked why I hadn't been paying.
Two of NTL's departments were telling me to ignore the debt retrieval department because they had accepted the mistake to not withdraw the money from my direct debit account, whilst at the same time the debt retrieval department were phoning me on a regular basis and harassing me.
One time I phoned NTL, they passed me and passed me and passed me, then a woman answered shouting "How did you get this number", of course I said I didn't have that particular number, she said "You shouldn't have this number" and then hung up.

NTL have a cheaper and superior product than BT, but I cannot take any more of this incompetent service. When I move soon it'll have to be a swtich back to BT.
At least their service is only 'so-so'.

this is soooo true

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:12:00 GMT

I am just finishing 1 year of working as a unix tech support engineer at HP. I am located in HP's european call center in Slovakia, and there are 2 outsourcing companies that hire the contractors there. One takes care of the "1st line support" and the other one takes care of the "2nd line support".
I work in the 2nd line unix team, and we deal with HPUX support, and some specific HP applications that run on these unices.
Upon reading this article, i realised with every single line that this is exactly like here...our company treats us like shit, (literally), they actually use the benefits we are entitled to after doing a good job as weapons against us ("if you don't like something, then keep your mouth shut, or else you won't get any bonuses"), the thing with the HR is exactly the same here...if you try to get in touch with anyone from there, tough luck.
The same goes for breaking the rules for helping customers. I have done this many many times, just to help some guys out, and solve their problem.
In the beginning, i loved my job, but the comapany that i now work for, has made my work experience a real nightmare. (and that's why i wuit :-))
Overall, i just wanted to say that i am experiencig the same thing here, and that i am absolutely appaled at the ridiculously low price at which our employers value us tech guys.

Ok

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:13:00 GMT

Well the only problem i see here is that you have chosen to make a career out of tech support. Little secret for you move on I am sure myself like alot of us here got started in tech support then moved on to bigger and better things. My personal path was Tech Support 1.5 Years ->Access Developement(self taught) 6 months->Windows NT Administration 2 years->unix System Administration for the last 5 years. See a pattern? i went from $7.50hr to $31.00hr in the same amount of time you have been you doing tech support...without a degree and without certs...Mostly self taught....It can be done move on my friend

off-topic

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:30:00 GMT

what does it have to do with FOSS or OSes ?

RE:Ok

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:49:00 GMT

Smartpatrol, what you just described has been exactly my experience. You really have to move in this business.

In my case I also have no degree and no certs and make close to what you are pulling in but in the DC area which has very high cost of living. You have to capitalize on things that are needed but people are not doing. In your instance you went into Unix admin. In my role I can wear several hats from laying wire to setting up XServes.

Not to discount the MCSEs out their but there are just too many and their are lots of good MS admins WITHOUT jobs so having MS skills are excellent but a bad focus IMHO. Better to go with Linux/Unix admin, networking and security. Even Mac skillz wouldn't hurt.

My experience

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:01:00 GMT

I, too, work at a call center, though not as a computer technician. I am employed by the GOVERNMENT and the conditions are horrible. I've been working there since last July and in that entire period I've never been either absent or even late; yet I called out last Sunday to attend my grandfather's funeral and I am now being hounded by HR for a death certificate (thanks for trusting me!).

I'm provided with little information and I consistently have to find synonyms for "I don't know." No one takes responsibility for the content management and it's the call-representatives, such as myself, that bear the brunt of the callers' rage.

It's a terrible job and I can't wait to quit (I'm nearly done with a masters' of education, so it hopefully won't be long).

Couldn't agree more

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:17:00 GMT

I worked an outsourced help desk for a major computer manufacturer for about a year, and I couldn't agree more, except that we were paid a lot less. The company was paid on a per-call basis, and I learned quickly to solve the customer's immediate problem and move on to the next one. Whenever you tried to be helpful to a customer, it was invariably a case of giving an inch and they'd try to take a mile. They would often get nasty if we didn't stay with them and solve every problem they ever had with their computer. I can't tell you how often I heard "I'll have your job". The company monitored us constantly, and according to them, everything we said was wrong. Plus we had sales goals, and we were required to sell unnecessary parts and accessories to at least 20% of the customers. We never got bonuses, spiffs or any monetary reward of any type. And when we worked overtime, which was rare, we were required to take 1 1/2 times as many calls to justify the extra expense or get written up. I thought it was a job I would enjoy, but it turned out to be one of the worst jobs I've ever had in my life.

One conclusion

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:28:00 GMT

One word: UNIONIZE! United we always stand stronger, and there have been examples of succesful unions in call-centres.

RE:corky2023 (IP: ---.suth.com)

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:33:00 GMT

"I can't tell you how often I heard "I'll have your job". "

To that you say. "Oh you'll love it. You meet some of the nicest people...like you."

There's one silver lining in all the tales of woe. When you all start your own companies. You'll know what NOT to do.

Outsourcing and Importing China made goods

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 00:49:00 GMT

When you shop at Wal-Mart and buy all of the cheap
imported goods from China to save $2 after
shoppping what do you expect.

When you purchase an imported car (aka) Honda,
Toyota, Nissan, and the rest the money is going
to Japan.

When you want everything CHEAP, you become cheap
and replaceable.......

Tech Skills are CHEAP now, so are Doctors thanks
to India, and all the companies using Cheap labor.
Meanwhile, a gallon of gas cost around $1.85 or so.
The cost of living goes up and you want something
for nothing, guess what YOU are the root cause for
your OWN problems.......

Don't blame the Presiden, don't blame the company,
YOU wanted it ALL CHEAP.

In the end, you can have a degree, it is worthless
as the paper it is written on, when you can't compete
with someone in a different country making $3,000
a year. Even tho, $3,000 will get you by for about
2 months of poverty living.

The Wal-Marts of the world, have made America what
it is, importing cheap junk, selling it at
rip-off prices making billions off stupid,
uneducated and uncaring customers. You bought
the goods make in a China sweatshop where someone
makes 10 cents an hour. Don't wonder why your
pay is low, you caused it to be low.

Why should someone pay you $45,000 a year, when
you don't want to pay for decent American made
products? You are right, they don't so they left
the USA to go Cheap like you wanted.

Terry Reynolds
Analyst

RE: Outsourcing and Importing China made goods

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:26:00 GMT

Take a look at these books online for a thorough look at world trade.

http://www.ied.info/

Some comments

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 02:32:00 GMT

During the late 90s tech boom people with minimal skills were paid way in excess of what they were worth. Educational institutes pumped out vast numbers of I.T trained people. There is now a glut of these people.

India produces millions of university graduates each year. Most speak excellent English. They can work for 1/10 of westerners and still have a good (by Indian standards) middle income lifestyle.

People in western countries expect to buy very cheap goods (US$40 dvd players) and complain when jobs are exported.

My suggestion - think like a capitalist and make your own opportunities.

Just say no

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:09:00 GMT

One word: UNIONIZE! United we always stand stronger, and there have been examples of succesful unions in call-centres.

Are you insane? Unions were great back in the 30-40's but nowadays with modern labor law they are the worst thing you can do to a company. You force a company to pay you more money through your union and guess what thats transfered to the customer which switch to the less expensive products produced by the non-unionized companies end result the unionized company folds under and everyone is out a job.

Why should someone pay you $45,000 a year, when
you don't want to pay for decent American made
products? You are right, they don't so they left
the USA to go Cheap like you wanted.

See above At least in the auto industry Union workers have priced themselves out of a job and made american cars expensive as hell. Can't blame people for wanting less expensive cars even though i personally have never owned one nor will I if i can help it but who knows $50,000 for a new tahoe ouch i can buy a corvette for that much or five kias's

My replies

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 07:43:00 GMT

> Why don't you? Sounds like a reality check is in order.

I've done it several times. I've moved from the warehousing and logistics industry to the call centre industry. I will be moving on again shortly. Jobs are easy to find. Good jobs that pay well aren't. So I'll just keep moving around until I can find an employer worth sticking with.

> Don't blame the President, don't blame the company, YOU wanted it ALL CHEAP.

That was beautiful, it brought a tear to my eye.

> Are you insane? Unions were great back in the 30-40's but nowadays with modern labor law they are the worst thing you can do to a company.

Are you insane? Without a union, an employer can fire you without just cause, hold your job over your head, and generally treat you like a pile of shit. No union = no job security.

It's been demonstrated over and over again that the modern corporation does not have what it takes to treat their employees fairly. That means a balance of power is necessary. Unions AREN'T just fair wages, they're fair treatment.

I don't buy the excuse that it raises the corporate operating costs and drives them out of business. Companies feed this same crap excuse to employees all the time to scare them. Walmart could probably DOUBLE the wage of every employee and still make obscene profits.

> can buy a corvette for that much or five kias's

I don't drive either but you can keep your Kia. I'll buy the car that was built buy the "guy" who was paid decently and gave a crap about what he was doing.

Sad but true

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:36:00 GMT

Well ... this shouldn't be surprising in the least ... u see, call center jobs are one of the most replaceable -- i should know --- I live in India, and the media is always full of how the call centre industry is set to grow at obscenely high double figure rates because of the *huge* number of (largely) american jobs that will be outsourced in the next few years.

Personally, I hate call centre jobs, which is why I intend to pursue graduate studies in the US and escape -- A lot of my friends who *liked* tech stuff and didn't bother with getting degrees are stuck at exactly that level -- call centre jobs and low-level programming jobs -- but I guess its probably worse in the US because ppl here are willing to do it for 1/10th the price -- heck they would do it for even less i guess ... so u just cant compete with them ... the only way out is to get higher degrees and move up the ladder, else ure totally totally screwed...

P.S. Already Indian call centres are facing competition from places like Vietnam where ppl are willing to do the same tech work for *even* less....

What happened to talk with your feet?

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:36:00 GMT

If management demands poor tech support then word should get around about the poor service.. and people should stop buying the product! Management will always be clueless. Customers will always be clueless (and usually rude). Rewarding the companies that fit your requirements should come first before popularity and price.

Call center situation in India almost the Same

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:40:00 GMT

11-14 dollars an hour ???????????

well in india prices start of at 10,000 Rs per month for new guys/gals , that around less than a dollar a day for 9 hour shifts . i got into tech support coz i love troubleshooting computers and as my english was ok (neutral) , i faired well in training and with most customers . But average talk time is what companies want reduced , no matter how complicated the process of troubleshooting is . here we have incentives , where in more CSATs ( customer satisfaction ) points u get , more ur pay increases at the end of the month . I got real good CSAT . but if ur average talk time went up , your pay gets cut too . Scenario here is most people skip between companies every 6 months or so , as there are a lot of companies coming up and give attractive ( well better than some jobs ) salaries . On Top of this people here have to work in night shifts , which for a few lucky ones only changes once a month . Others have to change their body clocks every week to cope up . MNCs who operate call centers here directly have good respect for the employee and take kare of them well , by providing free food and transportation . Other 3rd party companies just run things like sweat shops . Things have to improve here , else a lot of companies will outsource outta India itself . Talent , skill set and knowledge is plenty here , Effective mature management of the people and an understanding of that call center execs represent important part of the company seems to lack here .

But eventually , it helps freshers , who have just completed college to earn higher than normal jobs would pay and they use that cash to improve on their technical skills with certifications and Post grad courses .

Editing

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:49:00 GMT

Does anyone actually edit these articles? I hate to be a nitpicker, but it reflects very badly on the website when articles contain mistakes such as "back ground" and "there" when "their" should have been used. I can understand the author of the article missing such mistakes - everyone makes mistakes - but any half-competent editor should notice these things.

RE:Call center situation in India almost the Same

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:26:00 GMT

oops , i meant salary here in india is less than 1 dollar an hour .

Yup

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:29:00 GMT

your call center sounds like it had it easy. I worked for that computer manufacturing place that rhymes with Hell, and they use IP phones there, so we couldn't hang up on folks as every fricking statistic was tracked there. The system was run in tandem, so screen updates were slow. I have to say the materials and information we had to work with was great, and my team and immediate supervisors were awesome, but way upper management didn't care about anything other than numbers. I feel sorry for the few that are left, and I'm surprised they have lasted this long. But listening to how they do it, I feel even more sorry for the customers. Of course I'm sure it doesn't help to have people without a clue calling saying their drink holder broke. I think customer education would cut down on times, but I do agree that they need to treat their people better. And hey, I got a frizbee. :-D

My Experience

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:08:00 GMT

I worked for a call center for almost 2 years. The whole experience was awful. Most negative things that have been said here are true. I was paid at the top end of the scale $14 to start and never got a raise after that. The company did not train us nearly enough on how to support our customers, and we often got thrown in queues. Some of our customers we had no info on at all, or the info was several years old, but the calls for those were rare, so no one cared to update it, and the unlucky person who got those calls just had to sweat it out. There were many at my office who got 'em off the phone quick, but I was kindof a clean up guy. I actually fixed the problem on nearly 100% of the calls I got, and also took calls off of less capable analysts hands (though I was not a supervisor - because of my knowledge and skill they treated me like one - without paying me more of course). I tried to effect change in the company and help the company to manage better, improve process, etc, but management was lethargic. Eventually I couldn't take it anymore, and now I am a linux administrator/developer.
Call centers have major problems with losing talent.
The work environment was the most emotionally draining I've ever experienced. Living in fear of managers, wrath of customers, and having to deal with blind users, deaf users, incredibly naive users, is all taxing on the psyche. The hole time I worked there I listened to problems all day, and because of that I hated life.

they're not all bad

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:53:00 GMT

I work in a Canadian call centre (an american company which has been out-sourced) and I've gotta say that although a lot of you guys might be having troubles, I work for a great company that gives us full medical, dental, optical, paid sick days, 10 vacation days per calendar year, raises, stock options, RRSPs... the whole 9 yards. Lots of room for advancement as people are always coming and going. Some of the people I work with bitch and whine a lot about "working conditions" but these are people who have probably never had a genuinely BAD job. The rule here is that if you just suck it up and do a good job, follow the quality guidelines and be respectful and helpful with the customers while staying within support boundaries, and you'll advance.

I realize that I'm probably the minority here just wanted to point out that we're not all evil. I think I'm very lucky to have a job here and it works to their benefit too... for all the benefits they provide me mean that I'll work hard and do a good job for them; increased productivity equals increased revenues, making the venture more profitable for all of us. If only more corporate entities did this, with a focus on long-term results as opposed to short-term results (it is cheapter to out-source to india but it will cost them customers in the long run), it would be a far better world.

I do tech support helpdesk stuff for a MAJOR American broadband ISP and whenever I refer a customer to their router manufacturer, they groan and go "ah, but I can't understand what they're sayin!" Fair enough, nothing racist about it; people feel more comfortable talking to someone they think might be just down the road than someone with a thick foreign accent on another continent who has had to watch "Friends" as part of their cultural training for the job, rather than someone who has fought with his wife to turn the stupid show off but has watched it nonetheless.

Oh yeah, and I get to surf the net all day during greentime, reading places like this and typing my response.

I love my job.

when trying to get out a call center

donotreply@osnews.com (Anonymous) — Thu, 27 Jan 2005 16:09:00 GMT

how about when you apply for administrative jobs (non-call center, and your call center boss says, you dont really want that job, its dead-end... how does she know what i want...first, i wouldnt be under the stress im under (glorified sweatshop, have to compete w/ schedules and vacations, still make the same money, have the same benefits) why does she think i dont want these office jobs within the company? I am a top performer with perfect attendence. the ones in the call center who get the office jobs are the ones w/ bad stats, bad attendence. i dont understand. i guess i will be stuck in a call center foreever.