"Can the ordinary computer user ditch Windows for Linux? The question came up when I decided that my six-year-old version of Microsoft's Windows operating system had to be replaced. My Sony Vaio computer was still too young for the trash heap. And I was hesitant to spend $200 on the Windows XP operating system, especially with Microsoft planning to launch XP's replacement, Vista, in January. So, I decided to give the operating systems that run on Linux technology a try."
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Member since:2005-07-12
>> I've gone through all this on Windows, and the situation is still the same today. You need a good conservative $3000 more on a Windows PC to make it work like a basic download Linux distro (not even like a commercial one).
Beep, beep, beep, my BS alarm is going off. I'd be VERY interested to hear that $$$ amount explained.
>> I've yet to meet one Windows user without warez on his PC, most have only that on their PC. Remove the warez, and most of them are lost.
And these power-user are very hypocritical when talking about Linux apps, as they will go through hoops a normal user would never go through, to install their warez.
Uhm... Sure, right. First off, most of the users I'm thinking of would be LOST installing warez - and even that's usually not too hard since most of the time it's either run a .exe to patch the program, or replace the normal .exe - or just run a keygen; all of which makes dicking around in .conf files seem piss simple by comparison.
>> So for these people, a Linux distro that does it automagically is the key.
Even I have no time to do that, [u]it's all automated on my hand made Linux OS.[/u]
Did ANYBODY actually understand that? If I'm reading that right, thanks for proving my point. (the underlined part)
>> Then why can't these users go buy a Linux distro instead of compiling apps ? These are not the same as free downloaded ones, they are more complete and user-friendly.
Did you even READ my post? I chose that example for a VERY good reason. Name for me ONE distro that actually has WORKING nVidia proprietary drivers AND [u]working mainboard agpgart/pci-x16[/u] extensions... Only one comes to mind on the first subject - and we've got TWO other articles and rather lengthy list on how THAT's working out.
>>As for programs not in that distro, that's a classic false problem. What do Windows users do in this case ?
Go buy a CD, slap it in, let the autoplay run and install it, click on the icon and start using it. That's what...
OR download a single .exe (or .msi, .zip, etc), run it, and let the installer take care of it...
MEANWHILE on the linux side unless you happen to be LUCKY enough for the program you want to be in your distro's repository or happen to be available as a standard package for said distro you are SOL - unless you can tolerate the 'so easy' gzip | tar | configure | make | make install - and even then 99.99% of the time that only gets you as far as having it able to be run from the command line - you STILL have to make the shortcuts/menu entries for KDE/Gnome by hand - which AGAIN is the point at which most 'middle of the road' users are going to tell you to go take a flying leap.
>>Upgrading works just fine, adding an external device means they ask me for advice;
Really, how'd that 2.4 to 2.6 kernel jump work out for them? (or did you leave them on 2.4, in which case half the wireless cards out there you can't even get working drivers for?) Not to mention adding an external device a 'power user' has to come to you for HELP? That there spells out a problem...
>>adding a new video card, they couldn't do it themselves, and would never do that.
and
>>They don't talk about design or changing OS, as they could not anyway.
and
>>The printing was good, but the scanner would not work. It didn't even bother them !! I fixed it with adding a line in a config file (Epson could have done that without problem for Linux, it took me 10 minutes to find the info), saying it was unacceptable buying sth and not getting most off it.
It REALLY starts to sound like you are talking about nubes, not 'power users' as I meant it... That epson printer/scanner on Windows, let's see... plug it in, run the install CD, done - and they could probably have done it themselves - if they couldn't, we're talking DIFFERENT levels of use... and frankly "I fixed it with adding a line in a config file" spells out EXACTLY what I'm talking about, editing some obscure config file in some obscure directory - the type of thing the user IS going to come running to you for - on something they SHOULDN'T HAVE TO.
>>This is just BS sorry. You can't install everything on a Windows version. You can install everything designed for this version of Windows if you have the knowledge. Which is true for Linux distro too.
and it's statements like this that are the real "What the devil is in that kool aid?" that you hear from linux people a lot. First off 'this version of windows' - this sounds like something someone who NEVER used windows would say. Sure, a handful of poorly written win95/98 games won't run on 2k/XP - but lands sake windows compatability across different versions is the cornerstone of windows appeal (and also the cornerstone of it's instability, fair is fair). I could run Office 1.0 for Windows 3.x under XP if I wanted without even a hitch in XP's stride - NT4 software and much of NT3 works JUST FINE on 2k/XP - pretty much any software (other than a handful of games - mostly from activision) written in the past DECADE will install and run under XP with minimal hassles...
Meanwhile a major linux kernel revision completely breaks binary compatability, likely breaks ALL drivers, and has the habit of requiring recodes to even have SOURCE level compatability.
>>I doubt everyone could install a lot of specialised apps on Windows.
Again, I don't see what's so hard about slapping in a CD and letting the autorun installer or downloading a .exe and running it. Accept, Next, Next, Complete, Next, (wait a few minutes), finish, click on the icon. ANY IDIOT can do that.
While it takes a special breed of moron to handle configure | make | make install.
Member since:2006-03-12
$3000 is cheap for what you get on a disto, you can argue that they are notas good, as the commercial Microsoft platform counterparts, but even in sterling $3000 seems very concervative, and I've just scratched the surface.
£114.20 Adobe Photoshop - Gimpshop
£2210 3D Studio MAX - Blender
£230 Cubase - Audacity
£71.00 Cakewalk - kmidi
£338 Microsoft Office - OpenOffice
£43 Quicken - Gnucash
£717.86 Quark - Scribus
£340.53 Adobe Acrobat - Ghostscript
£23 Winzip - File Roller
£41 Nero Burning Rom - K3B
£25.53 Norten Ghost - Partition Image
£18.14 Norton Antivirus - ClamAV
£20.16 Mavis Beacon - Ktype
£128.14 Visual Studio - Kdevelop
£1447.60 Microsoft SQL Server - MySql
£264 Microsoft Windows Server 2003 - Linux + X
Stealing is commonplace; software is so expensive. I use linux becuase it is. I also use it because (like you don't have understand) products require activation.
As you are aware most users on Windows do not just slap in a CD but remember they have to install/activate/patch software regularly.
On most distro its unlikely that you have to do anything than click a button and all you applications are current and 300 programs are patched stable(oooh and the kernel too).
For a printer scanner etc I didn't even have to put in a CD. I chose compatible harware, and all my interfaces look the same.
I understand the difficulty with Ati and Nvidia thats why I choose not to buy them. I own an intel, I'll game on my console anyhow.
Absolutely compatibilty will have problems between versions, these *badly* written programs, but if you paid for them you should be a little unhappy. Windows is remarkably backward compatible, not 100%, but then saying it is, is noncence. Look how XP has been stagnent for years.
Linux on the other hand, regardless of what breaks, is moving forward, constantly, stuff breaks, stuff gets fixed, and this all goes by relatively unnoticed by the user. I think its a better model
One area which Linux absolutely kills windows on, is updating 200 programs with one click, as opposed to "(search for website)(Go to website),Accept(sign your life away), Next, Next,(enter activation key), Complete, Next, (wait a few minutes), finish,(reboot) click on the icon(repeat for all programs)"
Member since:2005-11-14
Beep, beep, beep, my BS alarm is going off. I'd be VERY interested to hear that $$$ amount explained
You need explaining these $3000 ? That just conforts me in my thought that you're part of those people praising Windows but using only warez on it : hypocritical about the worth of these software at best. If you actually bought software for Windows, you would not even have to ask me this very conservative number I gave.
First off, most of the users I'm thinking of would be LOST installing warez
Exactly my experience.
and even that's usually not too hard since most of the time it's either run a .exe to patch the program, or replace the normal .exe - or just run a keygen; all of which makes dicking around in .conf files seem piss simple by comparison
You forgot all the part about finding them, knowing they're good, antivirus, antispyware, ... Lots of things which are just impossible to even understand to average users (and they are not interested anyway).
Did ANYBODY actually understand that? If I'm reading that right, thanks for proving my point. (the underlined part)
What I meant is that I have a package manager on my hand made distro. I don't use things like Mandriva for myself, as I'm knowledgeable enough to have my own Linux OS. I'm atypical, that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Did you even READ my post? I chose that example for a VERY good reason. Name for me ONE distro that actually has WORKING nVidia proprietary drivers AND [u]working mainboard agpgart/pci-x16[/u] extensions
Any commercial Mandriva distribution available. Next question.
Go buy a CD, slap it in, let the autoplay run and install it, click on the icon and start using it. That's what...
Which CD ? What you say is BS, you obviously never worked with ordinary users. They don't even understand really if such CD exist. When they have a need, we go through a long discussion to know what they want. Then, I tell them what to search for in the repositories.
OR download a single .exe (or .msi, .zip, etc), run it, and let the installer take care of it...
Which .exe ? They are ordinary users, not know-it-all people. If I tell them one thing, it's to never download .exe on unknown sites.
MEANWHILE on the linux side unless you happen to be LUCKY enough for the program you want to be in your distro's repository or happen to be available as a standard package for said distro you are SOL - ... even then 99.99% of the time that only gets you as far as having it able to be run from the command line - you STILL have to make the shortcuts/menu entries for KDE/Gnome by hand - which AGAIN is the point at which most 'middle of the road' users are going to tell you to go take a flying leap
And I say I don't know what Linux made to you, but you have an irrational hatred against it (perhaps you were put to shame, thinking you knew about computing).
What you say is just false, but I won't argue with you, you are just 5 years behind. None of my Mandriva users ever had the problem you talk about.
I wonder what app they need luck finding in the repositories.
Really, how'd that 2.4 to 2.6 kernel jump work out for them? (or did you leave them on 2.4, in which case half the wireless cards out there you can't even get working drivers for?) Not to mention adding an external device a 'power user' has to come to you for HELP? That there spells out a problem...
2.4 to 2.6 was done without a problem through Mandriva upgrade. There's nothing magical or hard about this jump, but you couldn't understand.
External devices are no problem either, they changed them without any problem. In the worst case, Mandriva detected them and updated the drivers automagically.
They are ordinary users, none of them have a network of computers, nor Wifi.
It REALLY starts to sound like you are talking about nubes, not 'power users' as I meant it
I'm talking about average users yes. If you want, call them nubes.
... That epson printer/scanner on Windows, let's see... plug it in, run the install CD, done - and they could probably have done it themselves - if they couldn't, we're talking DIFFERENT levels of use... and frankly "I fixed it with adding a line in a config file" spells out EXACTLY what I'm talking about, editing some obscure config file in some obscure directory - the type of thing the user IS going to come running to you for - on something they SHOULDN'T HAVE TO
Huh ? They plugged the printer in the machine, and it just worked on Linux, no CD to run. And no, they never came running to me for the scanner, like I told you. I found this unacceptable, they didn't. I think they just wanted to buy a cheaper printer, they had no need for the scanner.
The config file was neither obscure nor in an obscure directory BTW, and the next Mandriva version detected it without problem. The multifunction printer was out after the Mandriva they had : how the hell would it know the driver for it without help from the printer or manufacturer ?! And no, this is not Linux' fault, and yes, Epson could have provided an install that just edited this standard file (a SANE file in /etc, nothing obscure, and very easy to do), and claimed Linux support (it took me 10 minutes of Googling and I don't know anything about configuring SANE or Epson printers).
First off 'this version of windows' - this sounds like something someone who NEVER used windows would say. Sure, a handful of poorly written win95/98 games won't run on 2k/XP - but lands sake windows compatability across different versions is the cornerstone of windows appeal (and also the cornerstone of it's instability, fair is fair)
That's just BS you're saying. Now you're forced to tell me about poorly written win95/98 games. Let me make it harder for you : I'm also talking about my Mustek scanner and Miro TV card for example. I'm knowledgeable enough, and lost weeks searching for drivers and apps for these things, as none wold work on WinXP. None of my original Miro software even start on Windows XP, they just crash. So much for compatibility. BTW, Mustek says the solution is to buy another scanner : cool ! You are just an elitist Windows shill, and I think YOU never really used it like a normal user. A normal user don't go buying other hardware when they have perfectly functional ones, just to satisfy a new incompatible OS. BTW, the Miro card works perfectly on Linux, and the scanner works BETTER on Linux (it was stuttering on Windows, and works smooth on Linux).
Oh, another example : VirtualDub was acquiring videos fine from the Miro and ATI card in Win98, and could not in WinXP. That's in case you talk about poor Miro apps.
pretty much any software (other than a handful of games - mostly from activision) written in the past DECADE will install and run under XP with minimal hassles
If that's your experience, that's not mine.
Meanwhile a major linux kernel revision completely breaks binary compatability, likely breaks ALL drivers, and has the habit of requiring recodes to even have SOURCE level compatability
Given that most drivers are in the kernel sources, I guess this is another occurrence of your irrational hatred against Linux.
Again, I don't see what's so hard about slapping in a CD and letting the autorun installer or downloading a .exe and running it. Accept, Next, Next, Complete, Next, (wait a few minutes), finish, click on the icon. ANY IDIOT can do that
Another Windows user that would call my users idiots every time. Sad really. You elititst people tend to call people idiots when they can't do what you find easy.
Fortunately I don't do that.
Member since:
2005-11-14
he noted the two extremes linux works for, and he just happens to fall in the middle
And lots of bright or at least helpful people are hard at work making this middle people able to use Linux more and more.
The situation didn't change a iota since I've known Linux in 1999 : people still whine about this or that feature lacking, while the community is hard at work making these road blocks disappear. Only difference is that now, there are far fewer things on which to work, and they are more and more difficult to deal with.
It's the semi-advanced user that's left out in the cold
Actually that's not true at all. I find that those who are left out in the cold, are those power-user of Windows, that have nearly nothing except warez on their Windows to get anything done. I've yet to meet one Windows user without warez on his PC, most have only that on their PC. Remove the warez, and most of them are lost.
And these power-user are very hypocritical when talking about Linux apps, as they will go through hoops a normal user would never go through, to install their warez.
Then most Windows freeware require at least reading some docs provided to use them. Look at the codecs packs (each incompatible with the other) example.
I've gone through all this on Windows, and the situation is still the same today. You need a good conservative $3000 more on a Windows PC to make it work like a basic download Linux distro (not even like a commercial one). I know that, because the people I switched to Linux, were ordinary users : they bought every app they needed. They have piles of software box they found unusable. None of them bought Photoshop or Office for sure. These people managed to get Office in warez, because they could'nt afford it. These are ordinary users. These people would endlessly call me, they were lef out in the cold on Windows. I even learned them how to install apps and games on Windows too, I shouldn't have.
the one who has gotten used to being able to do things 'out of the box' or simply by running a single .exe - the ones who are used to going into any store, buying most any part and having it WORK when they get home - such users KNOW what their machine CAN do, but are easily lost doing things like "enabling repositories" or worse "tar | configure | make | make install" - much less spending time dicking with obscure and cryptic config files in even more obscure, cryptic and archaic editors like vi, nano, etc. (I was using vi in the 80's - it sucked then)
Then why can't these users go buy a Linux distro instead of compiling apps ? These are not the same as free downloaded ones, they are more complete and user-friendly.
It's the people in the middle who go "Why doesn't this work, and this... and this... and how do I do this" and when you TELL them go "What dillhole designed this" and/or "Screw this, I'm going back to Windows"
Must be true. The users I switched, and even my wife, when I explain to them, just say "OK cool, it works". They don't talk about design or changing OS, as they could not anyway.
The majority of people LACK THE PATIENCE to deal with:
sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-8756-pkg1.run -q
sax2 -r -m 0=nvidia
sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-8756-pkg1.run -K
So for these people, a Linux distro that does it automagically is the key.
Even I have no time to do that, it's all automated on my hand made Linux OS.
Which looks at a glance like gibberish to me, and I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS... much less should it throw an error because the kernel sources aren't present or WORSE, they have to rebuild the kernel by hand because the AGPGART or other motherboard interfaces aren't in the distro they chose
Again, a downloaded distro is then not the right choice for these people.
Sure, preloading kinda solves this - at least until they decide they want to upgrade to a new version of the OS... or use a program that is not in that distro's repositories... or add a new external device that support isn't present for... or add a new video card to play doom 3...
We're not in 1998 anymore. Let's take the example of Mandriva, as that's what I put on users PC. Upgrading works just fine, adding an external device means they ask me for advice; adding a new video card, they couldn't do it themselves, and would never do that. Once one user bought an unsupported cheap multifunction Epson printer against my advice. The printing was good, but the scanner would not work. It didn't even bother them !! I fixed it with adding a line in a config file (Epson could have done that without problem for Linux, it took me 10 minutes to find the info), saying it was unacceptable buying sth and not getting most off it. Next Mandriva version supported the printer.
As for programs not in that distro, that's a classic false problem. What do Windows users do in this case ? And what do they do for programs available but too expensive (Photoshop for example) ? They wait or ask for alternatives.
Sure Windows has security and stability issues, that's because any idiot can install damn near anything on it - an area in which Linux makes Windows 3.1 look robust
This is just BS sorry. You can't install everything on a Windows version. You can install everything designed for this version of Windows if you have the knowledge. Which is true for Linux distro too. I doubt everyone could install a lot of specialised apps on Windows.