"Ubuntu caused a lot of friction with and for Debian. In discussions with its founder, Mark Shuttleworth, and other Ubuntu developers during (and before) Debconf6, I was able to spell out the main criticisms from the Debian perspectives of the way Canonical/Ubuntu is handling things (without a claim to completeness). These criticisms mainly stem from discussions with fellow developers over the past 18 months, and I largely support all of them. I am publicising them here to help make the status quo more transparent."
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Member since:2006-01-18
Maybe you should take a look at Ubuntu Server and the plans for "stacks" (such as the "Install a LAMP server" option available in the current release of Ubuntu Server. I think that Debians main problem is that they insist on being everything to everyone and hence fail to shine in any single role except maybe platform independance where they are doing well for being a Linux distro (take a look at NetBSD to see my point).
No "stack" or other wizardry functionality can replace full control given to an administrator, and that's where Debian shines. Or do you know another distro that gives you full control and still scale to the most complex needs? That is Debian's main selling point. And I'll leave the Debian project if we ever deviate from that.
If Debian longs for a huge userbase,
We do, but only in the sense that we want feedback, not necessarily the users. We want to make Debian better (and not do whatever it takes to have every computer on earth run Debian), which is why we want stuff back from Ubuntu and others. Otherwise, we are going to run too close to becoming a supermarket (http://www.kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/the_supermarket_thing.html), which could potentially ruin the whole project.
Yes, this sounds far-fetched but it's really not. Debian lives because it's the best distro when it comes to integration of its components. If we let others speed away with their own integration without helping to consolidate all these efforts, then Debian will lose its purpose as a universal base for derivatives and other things. It will lose its pioneering position -- Debian has a track record of guiding the distro world, one of the reasons that it's always behind everyone else. But when you let the other distros be dogs you take for a walk (for the purpose of this comparison), running back and forth and showing their speed and agility to the world, Debian is the dog's owner, walking steadily in one direction and never turning back. And it can only do so, because the dog's owner has a broader goal than the dog.
So I've heard some people say that my post is "whiny", but that was obviously not my intention. I am personally not at all threatened by Ubuntu, nor affected by it. I continue to earn my money with Debian and have never had a single client approach me about Ubuntu. I do Debian because Debian is exactly what I need, and because it's a fascinating project. But I do see the potential in Ubuntu and all the potential that Debian can harness from it, and I do see fellow developers demotivated by Ubuntu, so that's why I even bother...
Edited 2006-07-07 10:32
Member since:2006-07-07
Member since:
2005-07-06
"The simple answer: because we define "users" in a much broader sense. To Ubuntu, it's Desktop users. To us, users include the advanced system administrator team in charge of thousands of machines."
Maybe you should take a look at Ubuntu Server and the plans for "stacks" (such as the "Install a LAMP server" option available in the current release of Ubuntu Server. I think that Debians main problem is that they insist on being everything to everyone and hence fail to shine in any single role except maybe platform independance where they are doing well for being a Linux distro (take a look at NetBSD to see my point).
If Debian longs for a huge userbase, they either need to reconcile with the fact that a bunch of specialized derivates WILL "steal" all the users or they need to put out multiple distros (Debian Desktop, Debian Server, Debian Supercomputer etc) based on what's today known as Debian.
Given that Debian really haven't got any big bucks behind it I don't see the second option happening and hence we're back to square one: living with it.
As stated earlier and elsewhere, the best Debian and Ubuntu can hope for is to streamline the way patches are handled. Given that Ubuntu is based on snapshots of Debians repositories, the patches may very well be outdated and obsolete when they are sent upstream.
Apart from sending a shitload of modular and specific patches, like you wrote in your article, I don't see what more the Ubuntu devs can do to please the Debian project.
Well, I could see Ubuntu being made the official Debian Desktop (see above) but that will sadly not happen.