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1) Even my mom can insert a CD in windows and click install after "autorun" kicks in.

Which is one of the constant IT troubles

2) People have grown to expect things in a certain place. My "stuff" is in "My Computer". If I forget, I just ask a friend.

??? My computer here, my computer there. But if you forget something you ask your friend? Is your friend indexing your files or what? I use beagle for that.

3) Off the shelf hardware is packaged with drivers for Windows that usually pass MS HQA

MS HQA is overrated. You still have to think carefully which HW you buy. No matter which OS (except for example Apple when you're bound with hardware)

4) File browsing - which file browser? some don't support columns, some are slow and clumbsy, some don't do what I want when I drag and drop. Inconsistent between apps that use gtk vs qt vs other decorations.

Simple solution, don't install more than one desktop. Choose one. As for filemanager? DnD works as it should.

5) application -> file type mappings. Can't I just double click a wmv file to play???

??? Do that with ogg, mp4 etc. Without installing codecs. Your mum doesn't know how to do that.

http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/menus/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entr...
Here is where linux actualy leads.

6) how to share a folder... right click, share? Or vim /etc/samba/smb.conf; /etc/init.d/smb restart; ? Yast? Redhat tools? Other?

??? System -> Administration -> Server Settings -> Samba?

7) how about setting up wireless networking?

For my notebook, it meant one click in package manager (after I made search for intel 2200).

8) wizards

???

9) feeling "protected" with norton, symantec, toolbar "helpers", etc.

???

10) I want professional tools (e.g. Photoshop) and not a hack means of running them.

Most (99%) of my windows using friends with this excuse are inadequate to know why Photoshop is usable. If you're not in serious dtp photoshop is one of the worst possible softwares.

p.s. I do a lot of drawing and I appreciate gimp the most. In features it could do better (I'm mostly missing rotating canvas as in Painter) but in working on dual screen and how you interact with alpha channels it is a clear winner.

11) I like being able to right-click desktop and change resolution.

Ok, since I have all 24" LCDs I can't imagine why you would need that. But here it is "randr applet".

12) a default windows installation has a lot less "crap" on it than a default linux distro ~ it's true!

Based on your comment about File Managers? Yeah, I understand you. It is a common feeling of everyone that does "full install".

Edited 2006-07-22 23:15

I mostly agree with your replies. But I still think it's easier for a non-comp-savvy user to get this with a default windows instal, no? Keeping that configuration however... like you said, "...one of the constant IT troubles".

13) can I trust open source drivers for my critical business work? even seldom corruption or process deadlock could cause big problems. And when it's time to upgrade hardware will the O.S. drivers be ready, even after they've had to reverse engineer the spec?

14) where the heck is X installed? well does the dist use GNU /usr/local/... or the LSB standard, or more of a debian deriv or slack or bsd?

15) boot problems but don't want to reinstal whole system? win = /fixmbr, lin = (lilo, grub, hda0, hd0, /boot, dd if=/bkup/hd0_boot_part.img of=... bs=...)

I'm with ya though... I totally 100% grew up on unix. I breathe unix. But I gotta admit, the average "PC Enthusiast" can fix my moms computer. The average "Linux Enthusiast" has 2+ years of CompSci and can admin or find the documentation they need for their own system.

shane

My God ... these articles never cease do they? Well, thankfully there's less and less comments on them, so I guess these articles are fading away.

Listen, if Linux really is God's only son as many of you deem it with your heart and soul, then most people would actually use it. They really would. I mean, does every kid and his dog use Windows Media Player? No. A lot of people use WinAMP, a lot of inept computer users too. It's not hard to go and download it and use it. Does everyone use MSN Messenger? No. Once again, a lot of people use AIM, amongst others. Where am I going with this? Windows has programs that are preinstalled which many in the Linux community like to believe that people couldn't be arsed to try anything else. Given, this is true for some, but consider those who use 3rd party applications and tools, and there are many. I mean, Windows comes with a word processor built-in, a photo-editor (of sorts ), a media player, a web browser, etc etc. Do people use them? A lot of people do but choices are available, and an OS with little hardware/software support and configuration which is difficult to many is not the answer.

So why isn't Linux mainstream? It's been mentioned time and time again and it's going through one ear and out the other or some lame excuse for a rebuttle follows.

1) I'm sure that your mum can also apt-get <name of program>

2) A users files are in /home/ and with default permissions left as they are, your mum won't be able to put her files anywhere else. Therefore beening unable to lose them.

3) This is an issue of hardware manufactures.
It still makes no sense to me why they don't open their drivers and get them included in the linux kernel.
It would save them development money and offer better quality drivers.

4) ROX is pretty nice.

5) wmv files are covered by microsoft patents.
You'll probably notice that the same issue occurs on windows and you'd have to change the file extention mapping there too for any file formats that windows doesn't know about. eg. .py, .php, .ogg

6) Depends on your distro and desktop environment.

7) Again, largely an issue of hardware manufactures.
The solution is to only buy supported hardware.

8) Druids

9) WTF? Antivirus software is spread through FUD. Is basically pointless. Much better to spend 30mins explaining to the user how best to avoid untrusted executables.

10) That's an issue for Adobe.

11) Are you sure you want to use a linux distro?
From this statement I think you'd be better off with Microsoft Windows.

12) Depends on your distro.



Most of these issues are about wanting GNULinux distros to do things the Windows way.
GNULinux is not Microsoft Windows. If you want Microsoft Windows then use Microsoft Windows.

Agreed, it's possible that "Linux isn't mainstream" because many users want "GNULinux distros to do things the Windows way". Alternative methodologies, applications, permission schemes, system updates, and metadata cataloging exist -- and I enjoy these very much. But the concern is, "why isn't linux mainstream". Just ideas... that's all.

Re: Antivirus... FUD
Ideally we'd be able to reach all end users (or those within our corporation, for example) and convince them that cute emails shouldn't be opened, that outlook shouldn't have msg preview on, etc. And that they haven't really inherited a fortune from the ambassador of South Africa. But in reality, this doesn't work. Attachments come through the firewall, and content scanners (antivirus software) help. In the long run, it's cost effective to maintain a battle front.

shane

10) That's an issue for Adobe.

Let me just say this: "ha ha". Maybe it's an issue for Adobe to support all the Linux desktop distros out there. I really don't understand why there are so many. To most users they all look the same, except for the wallpaper and the theme.

And while I'm at it ... why is there such a complicated and cryptic directory structure: can't there be dirs like linux/ (for the OS), software/ (installed programs), users/ (documents and settings) instead of usr, bin, etc, var, local, root, lib, mnt, tmp and so on? Why is there a need to use the command line on a daily basis to get anything done? I don't want to compile anything ever, I don't want to use package managers - I just want to click the installer and click away through the wizard, I want my OS easy so it doesn't get into my way and I can get work done.

I like very much the way PC-BSD is going. The PBI installers are so darn easy to use. It's something that linux should learn.

Maybe Linux's problem is that it's a server OS that also aspires to be a desktop OS. It would be so easy to make it user friendly if only the developers could think from Average Joe's perspective and not only from theirs.

All but one of your reasons don't even matter in a enterprise enviroment.(which is where Exchange is mostly going to be used)
In an enterprise enviroment, you don't want your users either setting up hardware, sharing folders, changing resolution, or adding file mappings. Those jobs are for the IT guys who should know the setup.

Now, for the more general issue of use...
The average home Windows user neither can nor do install Windows. They use what is installed on the machine when they bought it, and if their is a problem, they have someone else help them. Also, if you install a Linux Distro on someone's machine(who doesn't need any windows apps) and show them the ropes, they can get along pretty good. Point them to Ubuntu Forums and help them for a few days, and unless there is a major problem they can get along pretty good. Now, none of these people are computer geeks. One of them didn't even know how to operate a computer. Could they fix a major problem by themselves..probably not..could they have if they were running Windows..just as unlikely.

Ive found that its mainly an issue being not familiar with the interface or things being slightly different, but those with no computer experence seem to have no problem. Afterall, they have no existing notions on how the machine should operate.

Also, about point 9 on your list. As opposed to "feeling" protected, they are protected. Running Linux there are no Viruses or Spyware which can infect the system. This may change sometime in the future, however, for not the issue really doesn't exist.

Point 10 however, is very relevent though. Where I work we have Windows on the client machines, why? Photoshop and Dreamweaver. If those tools ran fine under Linux, we could ditch the beast for good. We are a j2ee shop, and all our development tools are multiplatform(eclipse and friends) We investigated using the GIMP and NVU and for a few of us it would work, however, there are some features that you just want a professional class app.

Personally, I think the OS(collectively) is ready NOW, however, the third party support(pro apps) just isn't there. Also, the mindset isn't there yet. People can be suspicious of something thats free; especially with the average users fight with spyware from "free" apps.

-Michael Moran

Great points. I disagree though that linux users are protected due to the nonexistence of viruses or spyware. Certainly the casual unix permission scheme (compared to SE-Linux) is helpful. But send an executable by email that a user can download and exec, and they are at the mercy of their own file permissions -- or any files with group wx enabled. e.g. system("rm -rf ~"); And as the user-base grows, I would speculate that tampered packages and code will surface. In this sense, no OS can be safe as long as users are able to download and execute. In general is the platform more secure? I believe so.

shane

1) Even my mom can insert a CD in windows and click install after "autorun" kicks in.

Can she uninstall afterwards? I mean really 100% uninstall? No junk in the registry or anything? Also, IMO, doing an online install with a debian based distro is much easier than messing with CDs.

2) People have grown to expect things in a certain place. My "stuff" is in "My Computer". If I forget, I just ask a friend.

Trivial, at best.


3) Off the shelf hardware is packaged with drivers for Windows that usually pass MS HQA

On install, most linux distro do a far better job of detecting most "off the shelf hardware." than windows.

4) File browsing - which file browser? some don't support columns, some are slow and clumbsy, some don't do what I want when I drag and drop. Inconsistent between apps that use gtk vs qt vs other decorations.

You have to make the same choice in windows. More and more people seem to think that msie sucks.

5) application -> file type mappings. Can't I just double click a wmv file to play???

Of course, I do it all the time.

6) how to share a folder... right click, share? Or vim /etc/samba/smb.conf; /etc/init.d/smb restart; ? Yast? Redhat tools? Other?

May have point. It's never been a problem for me.

7) how about setting up wireless networking?

Very good point. Setting a wireless router is just as easy with linux, as with windows. But Linux may not have drivers for the wireless card.

8) wizards

More msft pain, IMO. Next will tell me about clippy.

9) feeling "protected" with norton, symantec, toolbar "helpers", etc.

I feel much more protected with linux, than with windows. Even if winodws to loaded to teeth with anti-malware crud. From my experience, Linux is *much* less likely to become infected, and I have substantial experience.

10) I want professional tools (e.g. Photoshop) and not a hack means of running them.

Applications are a real issue.

11) I like being able to right-click desktop and change resolution.

Trivial.

12) a default windows installation has a lot less "crap" on it than a default linux distro ~ it's true!

It is not true. Try the network install of debain, by default, it doesn't even install x-window.

I use linux 8 hrs per day, and windows for Exchange and Firefox.

For somebody who linux 8 hrs per day, you sure don't seem to know about it.

Well allow me to retort!

I was just brainstorming ideas from a linux newbie point of view. Wasn't my intention to play dumb about linux administration or tools. In condensed form... I think windows users have grown accustomed to the "windows way" and the "hand holding" that the installs and shiny print-outs accomodate. It's been a good discussion about the "Linux way" of accomplishing the same tasks.

Do I know linux? BSCS compsci, linux/hp-ux/solaris over 10 years, comfortable writing PCI drivers, real-time app dev, custom builds, JAPH, and a very reasonable amount of administration. I have too many machines to admin though, so I must use distributed, load-balanced scripting instead of those cute gui's that help edit config files. I tinker my own rc.d tree, smb.conf, httpd.conf, rotating backups and cron jobs, hard-link snapshots, SVN over ssh and ssh keys, *.auto, and sometimes inetd to inherit a socket handle as stdin -- depending on the project reqs. I don't do enterprise NIS and network topo design, but I know linux.

thx for the good input... i've been enjoying everyones comments.

shane

To: tbostick78

Never bash OSS on OSNews dude... even though your points ARE valid, you'll just get bashed in return.

@tbostick78: From your post, it's pretty obvious you haven't used Linux for a while since all of the things you mention operate more less precisely in Linux as they do in Windows. Save a couple of things: when you insert a CD, the CD appears on the desktop but no software runs (for obvious reasons) -- you'd have to double-click the icon and double click on the install. Also, file-type mappings for most types (more than Windows) are typically pre-installed and are also far easier to manipulate in Linux -- but for patent reasons, people in the US can't distribute all of the codecs widely used in Windows (though you can download them).

File sharing does indeed involve right-clicking and selecting "Share" in Linux (as opposed to right-clicking, selecting "Properties" and going to the "Sharing" tab) -- perhaps the user would be confused to find check-boxes for NFS and Windows filesharing, though.

Obviously there are Wizards, though wireless configs can be confusing because the setup wizards for Linux wireless require you to provide the root password.

Obviously Norton and Symantec's illusory security is not necessary.

There's no "My Computer" icon on most distributions, and "My Documents" is called "Home", but you could put a "My Computer" icon (hint: the URL to use in KDE is system:/ ) and rename "Home" if it makes you feel better.

Windows doesn't have an option to right-click on the desktop to change the screen resolution, but it does have the "properties" just like Linux (KDE anyway), and you can always click the resolution change icon in the tray under Linux, or use the hotkey.

I don't know of any drag-and-drop issues. GNOME and KDE are both more prevalent and consistent than Windows in that regard.

My impression is that your familiarity with Linux is with distributions at least 3-4 years back.

As far as "crap" -- the distributions typically come with lots of software, but you don't need to install it all just because it's free. And having bought a number of PCs with Windows pre-installed, there's far more "crap" on an OEM PC than a typical Linux install (ads, adware, demo copies of software, AOL and a half-dozen other services, crash-prone OEM multimedia apps, etc.)