Linked by Eugenia Loli on Sat 22nd Jul 2006 21:15 UTC
Linux Toby Richards wrote an opinion article for NewsForge, claiming that for him, Linux won't get mainstream until Evolution - or another capable Outlook-like client - gets optimized and offers 100% compatibility with Exchange. In the comments section of Newsforge readers offered more reasons as to why Linux is not mainstream, offering a view on their needs. My take: While for my personal, home usage of Linux my needs are different, I agree with Toby that companies won't switch their desktops if full Exchange compatibility isn't reached and if Evolution stops being the memory beast it currently is.
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RE: more reasons...
by somebody on Sat 22nd Jul 2006 23:10 UTC in reply to "more reasons..."
somebody
Member since:
2005-07-07

1) Even my mom can insert a CD in windows and click install after "autorun" kicks in.

Which is one of the constant IT troubles

2) People have grown to expect things in a certain place. My "stuff" is in "My Computer". If I forget, I just ask a friend.

??? My computer here, my computer there. But if you forget something you ask your friend? Is your friend indexing your files or what? I use beagle for that.

3) Off the shelf hardware is packaged with drivers for Windows that usually pass MS HQA

MS HQA is overrated. You still have to think carefully which HW you buy. No matter which OS (except for example Apple when you're bound with hardware)

4) File browsing - which file browser? some don't support columns, some are slow and clumbsy, some don't do what I want when I drag and drop. Inconsistent between apps that use gtk vs qt vs other decorations.

Simple solution, don't install more than one desktop. Choose one. As for filemanager? DnD works as it should.

5) application -> file type mappings. Can't I just double click a wmv file to play???

??? Do that with ogg, mp4 etc. Without installing codecs. Your mum doesn't know how to do that.

http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/menus/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entr...
Here is where linux actualy leads.

6) how to share a folder... right click, share? Or vim /etc/samba/smb.conf; /etc/init.d/smb restart; ? Yast? Redhat tools? Other?

??? System -> Administration -> Server Settings -> Samba?

7) how about setting up wireless networking?

For my notebook, it meant one click in package manager (after I made search for intel 2200).

8) wizards

???

9) feeling "protected" with norton, symantec, toolbar "helpers", etc.

???

10) I want professional tools (e.g. Photoshop) and not a hack means of running them.

Most (99%) of my windows using friends with this excuse are inadequate to know why Photoshop is usable. If you're not in serious dtp photoshop is one of the worst possible softwares.

p.s. I do a lot of drawing and I appreciate gimp the most. In features it could do better (I'm mostly missing rotating canvas as in Painter) but in working on dual screen and how you interact with alpha channels it is a clear winner.

11) I like being able to right-click desktop and change resolution.

Ok, since I have all 24" LCDs I can't imagine why you would need that. But here it is "randr applet".

12) a default windows installation has a lot less "crap" on it than a default linux distro ;) ~ it's true!

Based on your comment about File Managers? Yeah, I understand you. It is a common feeling of everyone that does "full install".

Edited 2006-07-22 23:15

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: more reasons...
by tbostick78 on Sun 23rd Jul 2006 01:36 in reply to "RE: more reasons..."
tbostick78 Member since:
2005-12-16

I mostly agree with your replies. But I still think it's easier for a non-comp-savvy user to get this with a default windows instal, no? Keeping that configuration however... like you said, "...one of the constant IT troubles".

13) can I trust open source drivers for my critical business work? even seldom corruption or process deadlock could cause big problems. And when it's time to upgrade hardware will the O.S. drivers be ready, even after they've had to reverse engineer the spec?

14) where the heck is X installed? well does the dist use GNU /usr/local/... or the LSB standard, or more of a debian deriv or slack or bsd?

15) boot problems but don't want to reinstal whole system? win = /fixmbr, lin = (lilo, grub, hda0, hd0, /boot, dd if=/bkup/hd0_boot_part.img of=... bs=...)

I'm with ya though... I totally 100% grew up on unix. I breathe unix. But I gotta admit, the average "PC Enthusiast" can fix my moms computer. The average "Linux Enthusiast" has 2+ years of CompSci and can admin or find the documentation they need for their own system.

shane

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: more reasons...
by dotMatt on Sun 23rd Jul 2006 02:24 in reply to "RE[2]: more reasons..."
dotMatt Member since:
2005-07-29

One key point I want to throw out, (it will apply most to #14):
Windows to Linux is oranges to apple-seeds. We need to either compare the NT Kernel to Linux, Win32 to GNU/Linux, or compare Windows XP to Ubuntu, Redhat, Suse, etc. When comparing to Windows, distros are so unique and varied that you cannot just refer to them as "Linux". There is no Linux "OS" in the Windows sense of the words "OS". And we should not *expect* Ubuntu, SuSE, and Redhat to be any more similar than Apple and Windows, as they are different companies. It is purely well-planned convenience that there *is* software that can be used on all Linux distros.

13) can I trust open source drivers for my critical business work? even seldom corruption or process deadlock could cause big problems. And when it's time to upgrade hardware will the O.S. drivers be ready, even after they've had to reverse engineer the spec?

Can you trust closed source drivers? What if you are a US government contractor or big US company oft targetted for corporate espionage? Can you run those closed source Taiwanese motherboard drivers?

The driver readiness for your hardware upgrade has little to do with the OS. Microsoft does not write the drivers in the Windows-space; the vendor does. More and more vendors are releasing Linux drivers with their new hardware, and the FOSS community writes the rest, with much larger variety. Try finding drivers to make Windows run on your Sparc or PowerPC hardware!

14) where the heck is X installed? well does the dist use GNU /usr/local/... or the LSB standard, or more of a debian deriv or slack or bsd?

Why does it matter? We are using software for either Windows, or Ubuntu, or Redhat, or ..., and therefore it is packaged appropriately for that environment. It doesn't matter to me, the normal user, as the packaging takes care of it.

As a power-user, it might matter, as I may want to step outside the box, but as a power-user I know enough to control that - even if it is Windows freeware that wants to install to "c:", or c:[company name][software].


15) boot problems but don't want to reinstal whole system? win = /fixmbr, lin = (lilo, grub, hda0, hd0, /boot, dd if=/bkup/hd0_boot_part.img of=... bs=...)
How do you run fixmbr if you can't boot? You must be using a very limited, command-line only, DOS based, user-unfriendly Windows boot disk. Or you are using the ASCII graphics based Windows Install CD Rescue mode. I'd much rather use the GUI repair modes of your distros LiveCD/Install CD.

I will admit, users do not want to change from what they know. But if Linux distros simply become what is already known, we will lose all of the possible innovation. It will take time, but if some Linux flavor is truly the best, it will be accepted. But mark this - Linux will not gain acceptance by simply mimicking what already exists. Why change at all, if it will just be more of the same? Developers - don't waste your time striving for compatibility with product X (e.g., Exchange) - strive for compatibility with innovative standard Y (e.g., CalDAV), supported by N other products. As these products get better and more accepted, those that are not compatibile will fade away.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[3]: more reasons...
by somebody on Sun 23rd Jul 2006 19:03 in reply to "RE[2]: more reasons..."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

I mostly agree with your replies. But I still think it's easier for a non-comp-savvy user to get this with a default windows instal, no? Keeping that configuration however... like you said, "...one of the constant IT troubles".

You have to agree because they are all true, as are these ones.

13) can I trust open source drivers for my critical business work? even seldom corruption or process deadlock could cause big problems. And when it's time to upgrade hardware will the O.S. drivers be ready, even after they've had to reverse engineer the spec?

I'm speaking from my viewpoint only, not trying to represent major point of view

If you give HCL a spin. Then carefully decide on HW. Yes, OSS drivers are more reliable. Problem in the closed source drivers is that you can't realy do much about the state they are in.

14) where the heck is X installed? well does the dist use GNU /usr/local/... or the LSB standard, or more of a debian deriv or slack or bsd?

Now, this comment is simply stupid.

I don't need to know where X is installed. As long as it just works, why would I?

If you meant any piece of software instead of X, then answer is simple. Why would I need to know where it is? As long as it is in any point which is defined by PATH you can access it from anywhere. As long as I can access this in menu, why would I bother. As long as clicking associated file calls that software, why would I care?

btw. Windows softwares are installed in much more messier fashion. Distro at least follows its way of doing, while people on windows constantly reinvent the wheel.

15) boot problems but don't want to reinstal whole system? win = /fixmbr, lin = (lilo, grub, hda0, hd0, /boot, dd if=/bkup/hd0_boot_part.img of=... bs=...)

fixmbr will fix something? Either I don't know anything about computing or the fact that you're pulling that last and the most insane remarks.

While the solution with dd would fix your problem in any case. That is if you copy mbr.

Fixing one at the cost of others is not a solution or a fix. And even that it would be fixing the case when you want to get rid of lilo or grub, name some other case. fixmbr won't help you when your system goes into bluscreen during boot (even in safe mode).

I'm with ya though... I totally 100% grew up on unix. I breathe unix. But I gotta admit, the average "PC Enthusiast" can fix my moms computer. The average "Linux Enthusiast" has 2+ years of CompSci and can admin or find the documentation they need for their own system.

No, you aren't. We are completely different league. If you try to represent a contra point at least show a decency and present non-stupid and valid remarks. You putting your self into the same league as me, well... I even kinda feel insulted.

There are a lot of reasons why Windows is primary desktop. But, sorry... you didn't name one. All you've said so far is that you don't know what you talk about.

Why Windows still rules the majority of desktops?
- Comming preinstalled with machines
- Applications (and saying outlook or exchange client is just insane, it is more than that) people are used to, and application which simply don't exist on llinux
- People are used to it
- People are using it at their workplace
- games
- loads of crap downloadable from anywhere, and people just thrive to do that, no matter that this is the most stupid thing they could do with their computer
- linux not yet fully representing viable solution for their workplace

For now the state of enthusiasts is like like you said, but you don't seem to be smart enough to resolve why. Linux is mostly used in higher purpose (aka. servers), desktop purpose is not spread enough to pose the need for typical enthusiasts to be needed. It might even get to that point, but you can believe that you'll (or any enthusiast) have all the tools you need by hand at that time. Most of the current efforts goes into servers and the first mistake of the computing world is providing servers where enthusiasts can thrive. At the first real problem, they will still be just enthusiasts and nothing more.

shane

I'm glad you are

Edited 2006-07-23 19:22

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[2]: more reasons...
by astroraptor on Sun 23rd Jul 2006 03:26 in reply to "RE: more reasons..."
astroraptor Member since:
2005-07-22

My God ... these articles never cease do they? Well, thankfully there's less and less comments on them, so I guess these articles are fading away.

Listen, if Linux really is God's only son as many of you deem it with your heart and soul, then most people would actually use it. They really would. I mean, does every kid and his dog use Windows Media Player? No. A lot of people use WinAMP, a lot of inept computer users too. It's not hard to go and download it and use it. Does everyone use MSN Messenger? No. Once again, a lot of people use AIM, amongst others. Where am I going with this? Windows has programs that are preinstalled which many in the Linux community like to believe that people couldn't be arsed to try anything else. Given, this is true for some, but consider those who use 3rd party applications and tools, and there are many. I mean, Windows comes with a word processor built-in, a photo-editor (of sorts ;) ), a media player, a web browser, etc etc. Do people use them? A lot of people do but choices are available, and an OS with little hardware/software support and configuration which is difficult to many is not the answer.

So why isn't Linux mainstream? It's been mentioned time and time again and it's going through one ear and out the other or some lame excuse for a rebuttle follows.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: more reasons...
by somebody on Sun 23rd Jul 2006 19:21 in reply to "RE[2]: more reasons..."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

My God ... these articles never cease do they? Well, thankfully there's less and less comments on them, so I guess these articles are fading away.

??? Since you obviously didn't understand my point. I wasn't disputing article (read my other answer to the original parent to get a clearer picture), I disputed stupid reasons, not even one was valid.

Listen, if Linux really is God's only son as many of you deem it with your heart and soul, then most people would actually use it.

Now go trough all of my history and try to find one single point where I would be saying what you claim I am.

There are valid reasons, and there are stupid reasons. Parent post had stupid reasons, so I disputed them. Or, did I fought a holly war with all the posts saying contra linux?

Reply Parent Score: -1