Linked by Eugenia Loli-Queru on Fri 18th Aug 2006 04:48 UTC
Linux Were you to walk around LinuxWorld in San Francisco this week, for almost every person you'd see sitting, you'd see a laptop in front of them. And, if you're a snoopy person, like me, you'd also see that about half of those laptops were running Linux. That doesn't sound like that much? Think again. Even a year ago, Linux-powered laptops were a rarity. Find out why Linux journalist Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols thinks the Linux desktop is poised for success.
Thread beginning with comment 153511
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
hraq
Member since:
2005-07-06

"It sure doesn't hurt to have lots of great drivers and general purpose (non-geek) apps, but I don't believe that will ever be enough. "

I think that would be enough for me and alot of users and administrators as well.

How many web cameras are supported in linux?; simly none of which that I could buy from bestbuy, fry's electronics, circuit city, radioshack or any of those sellers online, so how could you convince webcamera users to use linux.

almost all Canon, Lexmark and other printers and All-in-one printers/fax/scanner devices are basically not supported at all in linux and if there is a driver for them it would never work as intended or the features of the driver will not include things included in Mac/windows drivers

Video Cards, almost all linux distros never were successful to recognize my 1920x1200x32@60 monitor resolution with the most common cards on the market from nvidia 6600 GT to ATI Radeon 7500 AIO, why? Drivers which are not installed by default or if they then they are not well configured (eg like in Xandros 3 or 4) due to licensing restrictions.

All Advaned Keyboards with key assignments are never completely functional (lauch applications, back and forward keys, applications menu keys,....etc)

All advanced Mice with more than 3 buttons, do not function completely with any linux (horizontal scrolling, lauch applications,gestures.....etc)

Sound Cards, almost all linux distros cannot support midi from out of the box like in windows and mac, beside lacking advanced sound optimization like normalization, per channel configuration, DSP for audio themes, optical audio output not working in most cards, ask Creative and Philips and...

Power Saving Settings will definetly crash your linux if not choosed and configured correctly, even if you choose them well whey will crash your system due to poor support; try to standby your linux system or hibernate it or better stop the HDD after 1 hour of inactivity.

And on Software support there are alot of professional users who will never try anything else to what they've used to and trained on tools, and they are right because they use the best of the best from Adobe to Autodesk and the alternatives on linux are still for babies (or amateurs at best )


So, from above everything is about hardware and software support under linux and that's the way for linux to improve and achieve, and not simply by buying the other technologies. By the way Redhat was buying alot of companies in the past 2 years without rising its Market capital above 5 billion a cent.

Happy day everyone!

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 4

Lambda Member since:
2006-07-28

That's a pretty impressive list of hardware that you don't believe is up to snuff on Linux. You better hope for a future stable driver API and that binary drivers don't get driven out.

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 0

Peter Besenbruch Member since:
2006-03-13

I, too have been seeing a change in the Linux marketplace. Yes, there have been vendors selling laptops with Linux installed, but currently they sell laptops where everything works, WiFi, hibernation, special keys, everything.

Now to hraq' comments. His is the usual negativism, combined with wrong information. I have no experience with Web cams, but have certainly compiled enough kernels to see support for lots of them. And then there is this:

almost all Canon, Lexmark and other printers and All-in-one printers/fax/scanner devices are basically not supported at all in linux and if there is a driver for them it would never work as intended or the features of the driver will not include things included in Mac/windows drivers

Canon printers are all I use. I have also set up a fair number of HP multifunction printers. For Canon, think Turboprint. They make excellent drivers.

Video Cards, almost all linux distros never were successful to recognize my 1920x1200x32@60 monitor resolution with the most common cards on the market from nvidia 6600 GT to ATI Radeon 7500 AIO, why?

I still remember installing ATI drivers in Windows. It was a bit involved, but doable. Eventually I ended up with a system where I could pick the resolution I wanted. Cards like the Radeon 7500 are well supported by Xorg out of the box. Indeed, support for the mobility version is better in Linux than in Windows. New cards are a different issue. Here is what I do to install a new card, let's say with an Nvidia GPU:

Install the card.

Boot to console. Log-in as root.

Run Module Assistant (I use Debian). Use the menus to download, compile, and install the Nvidia kernel module.

Use apt-get to install the drivers.

Make sure the xorg.conf file specifies the "nvidia" driver. You either edit the file with a text editor, or use dpkg-reconfigure.

Launch desktop.

The alternative involves downloading and running Nvidia's own install program. It's fully automated, but I prefer a setup that I can control with Debian's package management system.

How does this differ from Windows? First, when running Windows, I never use the drivers that come on the CD provided by the card manufacturer. I make sure I grab the newest drivers from the Internet before even installing the card. Then, in VGA mode, I use whatever install method the manufacturer uses. What I don't get is automatic driver updates through my distribution, something that Debian provides automatically.

I don't use fancy, button laden keyboards or mice. I avoid them. I have gotten a few to work on laptops, particularly my daughter's Sony.

The comments about power saving: "Power Saving Settings will definetly crash your linux if not choosed and configured correctly, even if you choose them well whey will crash your system due to poor support; try to standby your linux system or hibernate it or better stop the HDD after 1 hour of inactivity."

The same comments about configuration applies to Windows. If not configured properly, Windows will crash (and I have had more than a few laptops do that). I have been trying Linux, or using it since 2002. Only in the last year have I bothered with power saving. I was shocked by what I found on a Toshiba. Both suspend and hibernation worked. I never set anything up.

Prior to that, however, I could get the back light to shut off and the hard drive to stop (think "noflushd"). With the advent of a working suspend and hibernation, laptop support is pretty much complete, and that is the point of Nichols' article. People use Linux laptops because they work. If the hardware support works, then Linux's other advantages come to the fore, making the use of Linux on a laptop a no-brainer.

So I agree with Nichols. I have seen a steady improvement in Linux hardware support over the past several years. I can see why attendees at a Linux convention would use the OS in a laptop more frequently.

And on Software support there are alot of professional users who will never try anything else to what they've used to and trained on tools, and they are right because they use the best of the best from Adobe to Autodesk and the alternatives on linux are still for babies (or amateurs at best )

And if such professionals don't want to switch, who am I to make them. My concerns are with home and small office users, and frankly Linux is the better solution here.

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 4

hraq Member since:
2005-07-06

Man you are totally biased and supporter of linux; but what you have said is totally worng and shows me that you never worked as an administrator or even a technician.

Do you think that I use web cams, of course not, but still others around me who use linux wants them and I have to install it to them, and basically there are no support for 95% of Creative or Logitech web cameras if you have ever seen their web sites or any linux webcam websites. Currently,and this is the right fact, the only webcams supported on linux are the legacy ones which you can not find on the store shelfs.

OK (for a printer that I needed to install for my sister) the canon ip4000 has no support in linux, and the available source drivers for it is on a japanese web site and It will not work unless you go into 30 minutes with codes on vi; even then the driver is so, so, so inferior and will sometimes not work, then you mentioned turboprint which in fact I installed on fedora 5 and for some reasons unknown worked for 2 print jobs and then stopped working with the 3rd print job! the same happened with HP deskjet 895Cse and besides all that, turboprint wont install with many distros (80% of distrowatch list) due to dependancy issues, thus makes it difficult to deal with for administrators on mixed linux distro environment when the hardware is heterogeneous.

" still remember installing ATI drivers in Windows. It was a bit involved, but doable."

you want to convince me that installing graphics drivers of ATI on windows is more difficult than in linux and playing with xorg.conf and editing lines was easier?!!!
And for the ATI claimed default excellent linux drivers you said; have you run "glxgears" and found how bad the results of openGL in fullscreen with non proprietary drivers?! or have you played a wmvhd movie with 1080p video and 7000kpbs AC3 sound, I will be 100% unplayable without the proprietary drivers

"I don't use fancy, button laden keyboards or mice"

This doesn't cancel other people's wish and customer's demand to use them.

"The same comments about configuration applies to Windows. If not configured properly, Windows will crash"

Who talked about windows, try a mac laptop and see if it would ever crash when goes to or comes out of standby. For windows, only good OEMs were successful to implement power savings without big embarrassment. Linux doesn't hold a candle in this area to both mac or windows.

"And if such professionals don't want to switch, who am I to make them. My concerns are with home and small office users, and frankly Linux is the better solution here."

Your concerns must be with home users not office users who will have an administrator to take the burden of supporting linux away from their way, but for poor kids who don't know to administer their boxes at home I pray they wont become crazy. and saying "linux is the better solution here" is totally restrictive to experienced users or administrators but OSX is the best solution if the customer can afford it, if not then windows vista might be the last choice.

By the way I love linux and I use it on a daily basis as a server, and I am not pessimistic as you said but I am rational when judging things and I let real life senarios dectate my judgement.

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 2

draethus Member since:
2006-08-02

How many web cameras are supported in linux?; simly none of which that I could buy from bestbuy, fry's electronics, circuit city, radioshack or any of those sellers online, so how could you convince webcamera users to use linux.

almost all Canon, Lexmark and other printers and All-in-one printers/fax/scanner devices are basically not supported at all in linux and if there is a driver for them it would never work as intended or the features of the driver will not include things included in Mac/windows drivers

which is why I've been working on a way to get Windows scanner drivers running under Linux. It's nothing like ndiswrapper - the solution is purely user-space, and printer drivers work very similarly.

Sound Cards, almost all linux distros cannot support midi from out of the box...

Most sound cards have no MIDI anyway, and MIDI synthesis can be done via pure software anyway.

And on Software support there are alot of professional users who will never try anything else to what they've used to and trained on tools, and they are right because they use the best of the best from Adobe to Autodesk and the alternatives on linux are still for babies (or amateurs at best )

To find out why, read http://plan99.net/autopackage/Linux_Problems and cry...

Yes, IHV hardware and ISV software support under Linux is terrible ATM. But you might consider doing something about it instead of complaining about it and spreading FUD.

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 2

hraq Member since:
2005-07-06

"But you might consider doing something about it instead of complaining about it and spreading FUD."

I am not going to do anything about it because I don't have the time and will, and I am not spreading FUD when I just lay down the crystal-clear facts about linux on the table and let you see the real problems the administrators face on linux on a daily basis; of course other platforms are not without problems but they tend not to bring migraines, thus require more than Aspirin.

Reply Parent Bookmark Score: 1