Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 13th Aug 2005 20:24 UTC
GTK+ GTK+ 2.8.0 has been released. You can download it from here, and read the release notes here. GTK+ 2.8.0 depends on the Cairo vector graphics library for rendering most of the GTK+ widgets, bringing graphics capabilities as antialiased shapes, alpha blending, and gradients.
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RE[4]: Weird problems
by Mystilleef on Sun 14th Aug 2005 23:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Weird problems"
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

How come I'm not seeing this resizing issues on Windows? Do you get my point now? If you see ghosts, and other people don't see them, they begin to start doubting your judgements.

In this case, people will just label you a troll, at least until we can all begin to see what you are seeing? Developers will ignore you until you provide data that is useful to them.

Throwing around inflamatory keywords like "sucks", "inefficient", etc., will only frustrate you further. It won't solve the problem, if indeed there is any.

What is it so hard to understand? What is hard to understand is that you expect developers to miraculously make GTK+ faster, without providing them with useful/concrete facts.

That's like going to the doctor and telling her you are sick but you don't know the symptoms. How is she gonna treat you?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Weird problems
by raylpc on Sun 14th Aug 2005 23:53 in reply to "RE[4]: Weird problems"
raylpc Member since:
2005-07-11

Good point. J.M. is already in my troll list.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Weird problems
by on Mon 15th Aug 2005 00:32 in reply to "RE[5]: Weird problems"
Member since:

And herein lies the problem. It seems that anyone who reports a problem without this "scientific data" is instantly labeled a troll and discarded, ignored.

What about an end user with little or no computer experience? They see the problems, they don't know what's causing them, they don't know how to go about collecting this "scientific data", they simply report what they see and are labeled trolls for doing so and so their data is instantly disregarded. Now how is GTK+ going to improve as a result? It seem that you're happy to leave gnome/gtk to the power-users. I don't want that, I love gnome and want to see it emerge as the de facto desktop environment, but instead this level of ignorance and unwillingness drives users away. The casual computer user isn't the type of person that reads osnews, posts to bugzilla etc. They'll see the problems, get sick of them, and switch.

That situation isn't going to change unless attitudes change within the GTK+ development community.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Weird problems
by on Mon 15th Aug 2005 00:12 in reply to "RE[4]: Weird problems"
Member since:

People have reported the symptoms! Windows take noticable time to redraw when you resize them, menus don't get populated with icons until your mouse is halfway through the third submenu, switching virtual desktops takes too long, etc.

To stretch your medical analogy a bit further: The gtk developers are a bit like doctors who refuse to even consider treating your disease (slow widget drawing) until you can give them a culture of the bacteria that you're infected with (repeatable test cases), a complete sequence of it's DNA (voluminous library profiling), and a finished, FDA-approved drug to treat it (patch that will meet with all gtk developers' approval with no further work).

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[6]: Weird problems
by Mystilleef on Mon 15th Aug 2005 00:45 in reply to "RE[5]: Weird problems"
Mystilleef Member since:
2005-06-29

How come you and J.M are the only folks witnessing these slow drawings?

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[5]: Weird problems
by J. M. on Mon 15th Aug 2005 00:26 in reply to "RE[4]: Weird problems"
J. M. Member since:
2005-07-24

Throwing around inflamatory keywords like "sucks", "inefficient", etc., will only frustrate you further.

Since when is "inefficient" an inflamatory keyword? And I actually explained in that sentence why the word "sucks" is not inflamatory there either, but a fair description. Please read the whole sentence.

What is hard to understand is that you expect developers to miraculously make GTK+ faster, without providing them with useful/concrete facts.

I already provided many concrete facts. You just automatically dismissed them. And I never said that I expect the GTK+ developers to miraculously make it faster. This is the attitude problem I was talking about earlier - you, just like the GTK+ people, have problem admitting that there could be something wrong with the toolkit you like. When people say it's slow, you say that they don't say anything concrete. When they say something concrete, you say that it doesn't matter. When you explain why it matters, you say "provide scientific data and send a patch". When people send patches, they refuse them. Until this attitude in the GTK+ camp changes, things will never change to better.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Weird problems
by on Mon 15th Aug 2005 16:37 in reply to "RE[5]: Weird problems"
Member since:

Where is the time being taken?
What functions?
What widgets were in the windows?
What containers were they packed in?
Can you provide a small test program to demo?
How about a video-screenshot?
Maybe a profiler log?

Right now, you've told us absolutely nothing, except that you see a problem nobody else seems to.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[5]: Weird problems
by Wrawrat on Mon 15th Aug 2005 18:05 in reply to "RE[4]: Weird problems"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

That's like going to the doctor and telling her you are sick but you don't know the symptoms. How is she gonna treat you?

Actually, it's more like you are telling your symptoms to a physician, but he/she dismisses you as an hypochondriac because you can't name your illness. Knowing the name and even the cure would help him/her tremedously, but that's not how daily life works.

There is no need in being so defensive. We are not getting personal with you. We are sharing our perception. GTK might be fast on benchmarks, but it still feels slow to many of us. Personally, it doesn't feel snappy on my fairly recent machines (2x XP2500+, Centrino 1.7) with four different OSes (Windows XP, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo). Response time is alright, but redraw is sluggish. It's mostly noticeable in XP, but I can understand it's the least of their worries.

Now, I admit my experience is not easily benchmarkable and it's fairly difficult to pinpoint the exact cause to developers. I don't have the knowledge to profile the toolkit nor have the time to learn about it. Still, does that make me a troll or a liar? Does that make my opinion completely irrelevant? I happen to be a programmer, but millions of people are not.

Last, but not the least: it's not because you can't notice it that it doesn't exist.

Reply Parent Score: 2