OSNews

"The fact is that when someone *never* criticizes Microsoft, *always* jumps to Microsoft's defense, *always* claims that the MS version of any program is the best there is, *always* claims that competitors to Microsoft are irrelevant, or inferior, or even immoral...well, one is right to suspect that this person is a prime candidate for astroturfing. "

Switch Microsoft with linux and you'll have your self on the list of prime candidates.. Or is it just when it comes to Microsoft?

"Then, when you openly state that you suspect that this person is astroturfing, that you confront that person and they don't even try to deny that they are astroturfing, then this tends to reinforce the notion that they are. "

I've surely expect you to deny my claim... Unless ofcause you understand what it will tell about you.

"I mean, it is entirely possible that this particular someone (which I will not name here) is not an astroturfer and merely a overeager cheerleader...however, I have a hard time believing that someone could be that dedicated, that philosophically and emotionally attached to a company through pure fanboyism. It boggles my mind to consider this - even die-hard Apple fans are not as utterly, completely committed to MS as this prime candidate for astroturfing is. "

I do agree that this one guy has taken it far to long. But i don't see how he's any different from those who claim "free software" is the solution to all problems and that gnu/linux is second to none. When you look at it's no diffent from what this guy is doing. Again i expect you to disagree. Mainly because i supect it will put you in the same box as your prime candidate.

"BTW, comparing FOSS advocates to Republican is quite a cheap shot, considering how good a friend the Republicans have been to Microsoft under Dubya's reign... "

Will you'll have to say it's a cheap shot don't you.. how else could you argue against it?

"And if you believe that MS doesn't hire astroturfers to pollute web sites with their propaganda, well, I'm sorry to say that I consider this to be incredibly naive. It wouldn't make *any* sense for MS to pass over such cost-effective "guerilla marketing" tactics. They have the means, the motivation, and the past history of underhanded shenanigans to do this, I would be very surprised if they didnt."

Call me naiv all you want. I dont' really care what a "free software" believer calls me. I have better things to do then worry about the "free software" people.
But again you could argue that the same could be said about the companies spreding hype about gnu/linux... Are you on the payrole at a company pushing gnu/linux?

Switch Microsoft with linux and you'll have your self on the list of prime candidates.. Or is it just when it comes to Microsoft?

I wasn't aware that Linux was a company.

I also do not claim that Linux/FOSS versions of programs are always superior to Windows versions (in fact, I still use MS Word quite a bit at home). I don't claim that Linux competitors are inferior, irrelevant or immoral.

I've also said many times that I though Windows was a fine product. I've mentioned that I own an Xbox, and many games for it.

So, no, I do not fit that profile *at all*.

I've surely expect you to deny my claim... Unless ofcause you understand what it will tell about you.

You're going to have to reformulate that sentence, as I have a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. It could be because English is not my native language, however it does seem logically confusing in addition to the grammar mistakes.

So, for the record: I am not an astroturfer for a Linux company. I use Linux at home and encourage FOSS software when I can. I use Windows at work and produce proprietary software for a living.

I therefore contest your claim, which sets me apart from the unnamed astroturfing candidate even more.

But i don't see how he's any different from those who claim "free software" is the solution to all problems and that gnu/linux is second to none. Again i expect you to disagree. Mainly because i supect it will put you in the same box as your prime candidate.

There are very few people who claim that "free software" is to solution to all problems. I certainly would never say something like that. And while I prefer Linux for my own personal computers at home, it is not my desire for everyone to run it. I'd be quite content with a diverse OS ecosystem where everyone can interoperate with everyone else.

So, yeah, I disagree with the way you're trying to pigeon-hole me. I am not by any measure a fanatic. I use both Windows and Linux. I would just like it if MS played fair once in a while...and I dislike it when people resort to ad hominem attacks and strawman arguments, as well as outright insults (such as being called a cultist).

Will you'll have to say it's a cheap shot don't you.. how else could you argue against it?

I did argue against it. In fact the whole first part of my post was an argument agaist that misrepresentation of my criticism of a certain poster.

So I argued against it, *then* noted that it was a cheap shot.

Call me naiv all you want. I dont' really care what a "free software" believer calls me. I have better things to do then worry about the "free software" people.

I'm confused, here. I was responding to eMagius, not to you. Unless you are both the same person? Or did you feel concerned about this because you don't believe that MS would hire astroturfers to post on web sites such as this?

But again you could argue that the same could be said about the companies spreding hype about gnu/linux...

Except that many of them do not have the means nor the past history of such underhanded tactics (except maybe IBM, but they don't really care about Linux on the desktop).

As a user of Linux, I *do* feel a certain sentiment of belonging to the Linux community, which is why it annoys me when MS tries to attack Linux and FOSS every chance it gets. Remember, if it wasn't for MS' aggressive behavior towards Linux/FOSS, you wouldn't see such animosity towards the monopolist from Linux/FOSS advocates. In other words, MS started the hostilities, please excuse us for not taking the abuse lying down...

Are you on the payrole at a company pushing gnu/linux?

No, I design console video games, which are proprietary software products. We do not use Linux at all at my company. Sorry to disappoint you.

""Then, when you openly state that you suspect that this person is astroturfing, that you confront that person and they don't even try to deny that they are astroturfing, then this tends to reinforce the notion that they are. "


So the allegation of astroturfing, itself, serves as part of the proof, eh? What is this, McCarthyism?

Your tactic of labelling those with whom you disagree as "astroturfers" is a cop out. It's your "trump card". Whenever anyone disagrees with your agenda, you can resort to pulling the "ASTROTURFER!!!" card, which (you miguidedly believe) magically discredits anything the poster has to say. Unfortunately for you, it discredits you, not the poster that you tried to discredit.

That goes for you, tweenex, b3tSimmons, and the rest of the FSF crusaders that are trying to turn OSNews into a battlefront in their holy war against Microsoft. And turn OSNews into an "amen corner" for FSF, where everyone nods in agreement and no dissenting opinion shall be tolerated.

Edited 2006-12-16 22:48

"That goes for you, tweenex, b3tSimmons, and the rest of the FSF crusaders that are trying to turn OSNews into a battlefront in their holy war against Microsoft. And turn OSNews into an "amen corner" for FSF, where everyone nods in agreement and no dissenting opinion shall be tolerated. "

What you fail to acknowledge is that the subject of this thread is of a poster with a track record of lying and being called on it by members of a far larger and more diverse group than you hope people realize. And the lies on behalf of Microsoft go well beyond him; he just happens to be more blatant about it.

If you honestly believe that this poster always gives an honest argument, you will have to excuse me, since I need to return to planet Earth.

So the allegation of astroturfing, itself, serves as part of the proof, eh? What is this, McCarthyism?

Did I claim anywhere that I had proof that he was an astroturfer? No, I didn't. I merely stated that it is my *opinion* that he is, based on the factors that I enumerated.

Now, if you're condemning the fact that I expressed my *opinion*, then I'm afraid that the charge of McCarthyism applies to you much more than it does to me.


Your tactic of labelling those with whom you disagree as "astroturfers" is a cop out. It's your "trump card". Whenever anyone disagrees with your agenda, you can resort to pulling the "ASTROTURFER!!!" card, which (you miguidedly believe) magically discredits anything the poster has to say. Unfortunately for you, it discredits you, not the poster that you tried to discredit.

Except that I don't make it a policy to label those who disagree with me as astrotufers. You, for example, don't strike me as an astroturfer.

I expressed the opinion that the poster in question was a likely candidate to be an astroturfer based on his posting history. If you have read any of the long exchanges I've had with him, you will also know that I have tried to debate rationally with him time and time again, offering thoughtful counter-arguments, citing references, and carefully analyzing his position in order to demonstrate where he was wrong in a logical, civil way. That didn't do me much good, as he ignored my rebuttals and proceeded to attack me personally in addition to simply repeating his own initial positions.

I have only come to suggest that he might be an astroturfer after witnessing an endless repetition of this charade on his part, and not because I was out of rational arguments, as you suggest. So before making the kind of accusations you're so casually throwing my way, please do a little bit of research. You'll see that the allegations of astroturfing in this case are far from gratuitious.

That goes for you, tweenex, b3tSimmons, and the rest of the FSF crusaders that are trying to turn OSNews into a battlefront in their holy war against Microsoft. And turn OSNews into an "amen corner" for FSF, where everyone nods in agreement and no dissenting opinion shall be tolerated.

I am not an FSF crusader. I have repeatedly mentioned that, while I am sympathetic to their philosophy, I don't subscribe to it 100%. I have also mentioned that I produce proprietary software for a living. Some of this software were Xbox games, and as such I've actually contributed to making money for Microsoft.

I am not in a holy war against Microsoft, I just wish to peacefully coexist with it. Unfortunately, it is MS who has repeatedly attacked Linux and FOSS over the years. If one was to listen to you, we should just turn over and let ourselves be trampled over by the Redmond juggernaut. Well, until MS learns to play nice, me and other FOSS enthusiasts will denounce its dirty tricks.

I also resent the suggestion that I am against dissenting opinions. You obviously have never read my heated arguments with dylanmrjones, a fellow Linux/FOSS advocate. I have nothing against people who disagree with me, and I actually voiced my clear opposition to banning the actual poster mentioned in the title. Dissenting opinion is welcome, it is the essence of free speech. Debating those dissenting opinion is *also* the essence of free speech. You seem to desire that we stop dissenting with the dissenting opinions...this logically untenable position of yours, unfortunately, does not represent the essence of free speech.

In other words, you're free to dissent all you want, but be prepared to have counter-arguments thrown your way. In the meantime, please stop misrepresenting what I say and trying to portray me as something I am not. Thanks.