Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 23rd Dec 2006 00:48 UTC, submitted by dumbkiwi
KDE This is a response to the article yesterday on the progress of GNOME and KDE. Aaron Seigo, a lead KDE developer, sets out the current state of progress with KDE 4, pointing out that KDE 4 is on track for a release in mid 2007. "Thom points to a quote from me that our goal is to have a 4.0 ready sometime in the first half of next year. That gives us until sometime in June and I'm still thinking we can make it."
Thread beginning with comment 195687
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE: A lot of crap on that blog
by siki_miki on Sat 23rd Dec 2006 17:53 UTC in reply to "A lot of crap on that blog"
siki_miki
Member since:
2006-01-17

Even Vista got lots of advertised GUI features axed. For example Aero Glass Diamond (vector vidgets) or most effects from that 2003 video on youtube.

Obviously their driver framework and development just wasn't ready at the time for many planned features so they postponed them for Vista SE or later OS. Avalon for example isn't very much used in Vista GUI.


True, Vista 3D driver stack is already here and probably currently better than DRI. it is focused on next-gen cards and DX10 exclusively which allowed MS developers to make advanced design quickly, but older hardware support got sacrified (talking about WGF2/DX10).

However new memory manager in DRI is proof that catch-up is ongoing (despite devs currently being focused more on low-end Intel hardware). Besides, latest generation of Nvidia and ATI hardware is supported only by binary drivers, anyway. I believe that those two should be persuaded to base their future linux drivers on DRI, even if their specific kernel- or userspace driver will remain closed-source. Unlikely to happen though.

Big problem is X protocol. As you say, xrender isn't enough. We might even need something equivalent to WPF / XAML to be able to propagate and draw purely vector widgets and application windows WITH "scene" definition (borrow few ideas from SVG, Flash etc.?). Until then, workaround will be to do demanding stuff *and* 3D-on-desktop through windowed OpenGL.

Integration of compositing effects (or 3D) is another issue as you mentioned. Currently window managers are limited as they have no useful (=DE isn't really aware of it) communication with desktop env. Also toolkits don't have slightest idea what is happening, they just issue bitmaps to compositing managers and that's it. I believe there is lots of room for improvement here. First try at cpopositing desktop integration might be seen with KDE4.

Reply Parent Score: 3

rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

Even Vista got lots of advertised GUI features axed. For example Aero Glass Diamond (vector vidgets) or most effects from that 2003 video on youtube.

That's just a maturity issue. New effects and widgets have to go through the UI people, and Vista doesn't have the time for that. However, the underlying technology to do those things is present in Vista.

True, Vista 3D driver stack is already here and probably currently better than DRI. it is focused on next-gen cards and DX10 exclusively which allowed MS developers to make advanced design quickly, but older hardware support got sacrified (talking about WGF2/DX10).

That's a cop-out. The DRI folks couldn't have come up with a Vista-like stack even if they didn't want to keep compatibility with older hardware. Not because of any lack of technical capability, of course, but the fact that they just don't have the access to the specifications of next-gen hardware in the way MS does.

However new memory manager in DRI is proof that catch-up is ongoing (despite devs currently being focused more on low-end Intel hardware).

Barring a change of heart by NVIDIA and ATI, low-end Intel hardware is DRI's best hope. Implementing a Vista-like 3D stack on reverse-engineered drivers is an incredibly daunting task. Even given the fact that the Intel drivers solve most of the spec-access issues, hoping for a Vista-like stack by mid-2007 is silly. Thom's prediction of late 2008 is a much more reasonable one.

Reply Parent Score: 3

siki_miki Member since:
2006-01-17

That's just a maturity issue. New effects and widgets have to go through the UI people, and Vista doesn't have the time for that. However, the underlying technology to do those things is present in Vista.

In fact this is not just UI people issue. Windows Desktop Manager (a compositor in essence) was supposed to handle vector data as well, and do high quality rasterization itself (instead of this happening on "client" side). But now there are no mentions of this in Vista. Yes, in X(org) having this would require new protocol extension to define window structure as vectored object (as opposed to just having a bitmap in the server) and new XAML-like definitions of windows which would be rasterised by wcompositing manager.

Windows does support DPI independent desktop, but this requires application ("client") to redraw using higher res bitmaps (AFAIK).

Barring a change of heart by NVIDIA and ATI, low-end Intel hardware is DRI's best hope. Implementing a Vista-like 3D stack on reverse-engineered drivers is an incredibly daunting task. Even given the fact that the Intel drivers solve most of the spec-access issues, hoping for a Vista-like stack by mid-2007 is silly. Thom's prediction of late 2008 is a much more reasonable one.


Having a Vista-like DRI stack is a priority, but not urgent one, Memory manager is most important now and it might be ready by Xorg 7.3 release (bot VRAM & AGP handling for both Intel, r200 and r300 driver). Vista stack will support high granularity GPU scheduling for next gen cards, so currently in DRI it is possible only to implement what is possible with DX9-class hardware (similar to WGF 1.0) and I believe this won't take so long (btw. Avalon is DX9 anyway, so scheduling on DX9 hardware obviously in't a big issue).

While I'm confident that nvidia will have their own good implementation of MM and scheduling, there is hope that AMD might take similar approach as Intel regarding DRI. Roumored next-gen Intel hardware migh also, if it stays this way, drive development of DRI.

Reply Parent Score: 1