Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 1st Feb 2007 14:41 UTC, submitted by Oliver
FreeBSD "Linux has a large amount of device drivers for hardware not supported on FreeBSD, especially USB devices. Not rarely, such drivers have been written based on information derived by protocol sniffing, reverse engineering and the like. This makes the code highly undocumented, and renders the porting effort extremely error prone. To help with this task, I decided to start working on an emulation layer that would let us recompile the linux source code on FreeBSD, and provide a sufficiently complete emulation of the kernel APIs so that device drivers (or at least certain classes) could be used without modifications to their source code."
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Miss-information
by Moulinneuf on Thu 1st Feb 2007 16:28 UTC
Moulinneuf
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is a miss-information at its best.

First , its not Building GNU/Linux drivers on FreeBSD , its porting GNU/Linux driver to FreeBSD.

Second , this one single webpage ( not even a site or project ) , is reversing reality by saying that somehow the driver paid and made by GNU/Linux developer and the GNU/Linux community should support FreeBSD. Cooperate with FreeBSD yes , work for them for free and no support whatsoever NO !!!

Third , it make the false accusation that most of them are illegal and back-porting and sniffing based on what all BSD do all the time when USB is a standard and that developer are legally working on making them work since USB is a standard.

http://www.usb.org/home

Fourth the documentation is also available so does the source code except its all GPL. Witch I doubt the illegal derivative they are trying to make from GPL code are going to be.

Fifth why emulate when you can just add the missing code to FreeBSD just as long as it stay GPL. Its not like the rest of BSD is not GPL based anyway ... KDE , GNOME , XFREE , X.org , etc ...

Finally making anything BSD is a waste of time and money as shown by everything BSD ( in the last four decades ) who was closed and is now being used under other licenses inside Microsoft Windows OS and Apple MAC OS X . It does not sustain nor support itself and end up lagging behind its own derivative.

Its just another sad attempt at slandering and libel of GNU/Linux by BSD. They don't want it working or any cooperation , they want to slander and libel only.

Otherwise they would have made a proper project website ( use sourceforge for example + some wiki ), they would have asked all BSD for funding and cooperation and instead of Mud slinging they would have asked for cooperation and help from GNU/Linux.

Its just usual BSD garbage that leads them nowhere.

Edited 2007-02-01 16:29

Reply Score: -5

RE: Miss-information
by Oliver on Thu 1st Feb 2007 16:33 in reply to "Miss-information"
Oliver Member since:
2006-07-15

Such a nonsense in this short time? One of the usual GNUish zealots, who don't care about open source, just about licenses and their ego!

>Not rarely, such drivers have been written based on information derived by protocol sniffing, reverse engineering and the like. This makes the code highly undocumented, and renders the porting effort extremely error prone.

This is a fact.

>who was closed and is now being used under other licenses inside Microsoft Windows OS and Apple MAC OS X .

Hey Mr. Zealot, you've forgotten to mention Linux and it's viral GPL. It's already offtopic thanks to some zealots, so it doesn't matter anymore. Speaking tacheles is most of time the only way to cope with zealots.

Reply Parent Score: 1

v RE[2]: Miss-information
by Moulinneuf on Thu 1st Feb 2007 17:31 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"
RE: Miss-information
by Joe User on Thu 1st Feb 2007 16:42 in reply to "Miss-information"
Joe User Member since:
2005-06-29

It's a good thing that you can use BSD code in your commercial applications. It's the goal of the BSD license: Being able to use the code the way you want, be it in free or closed software. This is not the case with evil GPL license. Developers should boycott anything that is GPL infected.

Reply Parent Score: 1

v RE: Miss-information
by hyper on Thu 1st Feb 2007 16:57 in reply to "Miss-information"
RE: Miss-information
by tristan on Thu 1st Feb 2007 18:07 in reply to "Miss-information"
tristan Member since:
2006-02-01

Moulinneuf,

Speaking as someone who thinks that the GPL is a better deal than the BSD licence, I have to say that I have never read such ill-informed, ranting rubbish in all my life.

To think that you and I are supposedly batting for the same team is just embarrassing.

If the BSD projects want to use GPL code, be it drivers or graphical toolkits or whatever, then good luck to them. Sharing code is, after all, one of the fundamental things about the open-source idea. I fail to see how this harms Linux in any way -- it's not as if Apple could turn round and start including these GPL'd drivers in the next version of MacOS, is it?

There is no violation of the GPL here, and the FreeBSD people are doing exactly what they're permitted to do with the Linux kernel code. It's all right and all above board.

(Incidentally, this touches on one of the points that I don't really understand about the BSD community -- the idea that Linux "steals" their code. If you release something under the BSD licence, then you're saying anybody can use it for any purpose they like. It's a bit rich to then turn round and complain when a Linux developer does exactly that.)

Edited 2007-02-01 18:08

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Miss-information
by sean on Thu 1st Feb 2007 22:11 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"
sean Member since:
2005-06-29

(Incidentally, this touches on one of the points that I don't really understand about the BSD community -- the idea that Linux "steals" their code. If you release something under the BSD licence, then you're saying anybody can use it for any purpose they like. It's a bit rich to then turn round and complain when a Linux developer does exactly that.)

Here are my thoughts of why it possibly bothers people. People may disagree with them, but it does not stop how others may feel. There are probably other reasons this bothers other BSD-licensed project developers that I do not recall nor am aware.

The BSD license allows sharing to everyone regardless of what they do with it. If a branch of the source is closed, then that is in essence a dead branch to the original project. If the source is wrapped within the GPL, then it becomes a competitor to the original project based on the license instead of the direction.

Unless explicitly performed, the GPL-licensed project does not share back with the BSD-licensed project. It is all one-way. The reason this does not feel good to the people in the BSD-licensed project is that it feels like the GPL-licensed project is only there to replace them. Since both are open-source and need developers, they compete for developers from the same pool.

As for the closed-source project, it will either diverge away silently (at least to the open-source community), die or share source back with the original project just to make it easier to merge changes later back into their branch. Regardless of the direction, it will not be competing for open-source developers.

If the GPL-license branch had stayed BSD-licensed, then the only competition would have been on the features and/or lack of bugs between the two projects. It does not feel like you are competing against yourself plus others when you are able to incorporate source from the other project into yours. The reason this is not a bother with closed-source projects is that they rarely (if ever) kill off the open-source project even with an MIT, BSD or Apache license. OpenSSH and Apache are good examples. mod_ssl actually killed off the closed-source competitor of it.

The time--it really has been that long ago?--I recall about the BSD community complaining about the Linux community "stealing" was actually due to a copyright violation by a developer who ripped the copyrights of some header files in the FreeBSD source. Here http://slashdot.org/bsd/01/09/24/1432223.shtml is mention of it.

BUGS
I ramble a lot. ;)

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Miss-information
by molnarcs on Thu 1st Feb 2007 22:25 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

(Incidentally, this touches on one of the points that I don't really understand about the BSD community -- the idea that Linux "steals" their code. If you release something under the BSD licence, then you're saying anybody can use it for any purpose they like. It's a bit rich to then turn round and complain when a Linux developer does exactly that.)

Don't confuse some misguided fanboys with the bsd community at large. In my experience, the bsd folks are proud rather than annoyed when someone else uses their code, even if they don't contribute back. Just think about it: whom do you hear bitching about Apple using parts of FreeBSD? It's almost never bsd folks, but GPL zealots like Moulinneuf, who cannot respect other people's choices.

I too consider GPL a better choice btw - in fact, I think that's the single most important (and brilliant) invention of the Free Software Movement. But still, being a part of the BSD community I can see their points - or lack thereof: most of the developers I know (not personally, but from reading the bsd mailing lists) simply don't care about ideological issues. They don't want to care about these issues (for better or worse) - they just want to write code, and get it out there. BSD license is something that is simple and straightforward, and serves that purpose (well, mostly, PHK uses the beerware license, because he considers - tongue in cheek - the BSD license too complicated ;) )

There are also cases when the BSD license makes more sense: if you want something to become an industry standard, and it is a core technology, than BSD like licenses are a better choice. That's why XFree choose the similar MIT license (there were other competing proprietary alternatives at that time) - and that is why companies developing proprietary unices could easily adopt it (and hence, turning it into an industry standard) without having to consider the implications discussed here. Similarly, a BSD/MIT license makes sense for other core technologies like BIND for instance.

The purpose of Free Software is to guarantee certain rights to end users - and both the GPL and the BSD license does that, however, it is only the former that perpetuates these rights down the line of adopters (and I think that is an important goal). We are speaking of two free software projects here, and sharing code between them - and I just can't understand those people who make such a fuss about it. Its not like the BSD folks try to change the licensing of code originating from linux. GPL code will stay GPL, and according to the FSF, these are compatible licenses. QED

Reply Parent Score: 3

v RE[2]: Miss-information
by Moulinneuf on Thu 1st Feb 2007 22:55 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"
RE: Miss-information
by hamster on Thu 1st Feb 2007 21:37 in reply to "Miss-information"
hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

"Second , this one single webpage ( not even a site or project ) , is reversing reality by saying that somehow the driver paid and made by GNU/Linux developer and the GNU/Linux community should support FreeBSD. Cooperate with FreeBSD yes , work for them for free and no support whatsoever NO !!! "

If anyone should know anything about reversing reality it should be you... Who's asking for free work?

"Fourth the documentation is also available so does the source code except its all GPL. Witch I doubt the illegal derivative they are trying to make from GPL code are going to be. "

Illegal? Do you even know what your talking about here or are you just ranting as usual?

"Fifth why emulate when you can just add the missing code to FreeBSD just as long as it stay GPL. Its not like the rest of BSD is not GPL based anyway ... KDE , GNOME , XFREE , X.org , etc ... "

Ohh i see your just on your usual ranting again. Talking about things you clearly have no idea about.

You might wanna take a look at this from the xfree site...

"Code submitted under the restrictions of the GPL are not acceptable and will be refused "

and from the x.org site...

"The X Window System is distributed under the MIT ("X") License by the X.Org Foundation LLC."

And xfree, x.org, KDE and grome isnt a really big part of any bsd.

"Finally making anything BSD is a waste of time and money as shown by everything BSD ( in the last four decades ) who was closed and is now being used under other licenses inside Microsoft Windows OS and Apple MAC OS X . It does not sustain nor support itself and end up lagging behind its own derivative. "

Well we allready established that you don't know what your talking about... no need to show more.

"Its just another sad attempt at slandering and libel of GNU/Linux by BSD. They don't want it working or any cooperation , they want to slander and libel only. "

Funny thing is i see more of that from the linux side... You should try to read your own posts.

"Otherwise they would have made a proper project website ( use sourceforge for example + some wiki ), they would have asked all BSD for funding and cooperation and instead of Mud slinging they would have asked for cooperation and help from GNU/Linux. "

Ohh you talk about the same kind of help openbsd got from all the linux distroes that uses openssh..?

"Its just usual BSD garbage that leads them nowhere."

If you changed bsd with mine and them with me you'd be right on the money... The same old bs you allways come up with.

Reply Parent Score: 3

v RE[2]: Miss-information
by Moulinneuf on Fri 2nd Feb 2007 00:11 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"
RE: Miss-information
by SReilly on Thu 1st Feb 2007 21:51 in reply to "Miss-information"
SReilly Member since:
2006-12-28

"slandering and libel"

Found a thesaurus, eh? Doesn't make any deference as it's still painfully obvious your still spouting the same aggressive prose as before.

Dude, stuff like this is pure flame bait and frankly I'm tired of hearing your ignorant anti BSD waffle every time theirs a BSD related article on this site.

FFS, either give it a rest or grow up!

Reply Parent Score: 3

v RE[2]: Miss-information
by Moulinneuf on Fri 2nd Feb 2007 00:50 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"
RE: Miss-information
by mwndk on Thu 1st Feb 2007 21:55 in reply to "Miss-information"
mwndk Member since:
2005-07-27

"Third , it make the false accusation that most of them are illegal and back-porting and sniffing based on what all BSD do all the time when USB is a standard and that developer are legally working on making them work since USB is a standard."

Just to be sure, are you sure what this project is about? Where in the URL you post, is the information to write own driver support for the three mentiond USB devices? I couldn't find them

"Finally making anything BSD is a waste of time and money as shown by everything BSD ( in the last four decades ) who was closed and is now being used under other licenses inside Microsoft Windows OS and Apple MAC OS X . It does not sustain nor support itself and end up lagging behind its own derivative."
Face it, bsd's likes free as in free beer, not as in freedom.
Don't you think that the community got something back? You think everything is completly lost, when someone chooses to use your code?
BSD works for well know features, that all has to be rocksolid.
There is no problem in others is earn some money. What is the problem?

"Its just another sad attempt at slandering and libel of GNU/Linux by BSD. They don't want it working or any cooperation , they want to slander and libel only."
Please do not loose your head, you know that this is not true.

Edited 2007-02-01 21:58

Reply Parent Score: 3

v RE[2]: Miss-information
by Moulinneuf on Fri 2nd Feb 2007 01:10 in reply to "RE: Miss-information"