Linked by Andrew Youll on Fri 19th Aug 2005 21:13 UTC, submitted by tbutler
KDE Just over a year ago, Tim Butler wrote an article which outlined why he thought the GNOME Project was clearly the free software desktop project with the best vision of the future. KDE's Appeal Project, which has been brewing for some time now, looks to a different set of issues that need solving and has some very smart minds at work on solving those problems. In a few words, KDE's got some of "that vision thing" too, according to Tim.
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RE[11]: The problem with KDE
by segedunum on Sun 21st Aug 2005 13:18 UTC in reply to "RE[10]: The problem with KDE"
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

quite good arguments! If there is something which isn't compatible with your world than it's a failure and even will kill a whole company... wake up neo.

On what basis do I make that statement? Mono has had millions pumped into it for five years with zero (zilch, zip, nada) returns, and it still isn't usable to attract anybody from the Windows world. There is simply no market for it.

Look at Red Hat. They've focused around Gnome in Fedora, and now they're focusing on Java gcj development with Eclipse (where the market is on Linux and Unix), GTK and Gnome. Fantastic. It remains to be seen whether they've made quite the right choices, but that's something that is going to get them results. Novell and Suse should just focus desktop development around where their expertise is - namely YaST, Qt, KDE and possibly Java. Start a project to enable good Java integration in KDE, support the new KDE Eclipse project (http://kde-eclipse.pwsp.net/) and grow the market. Do something useful for the community and your customers and get rid of this crap.

If Novell continue to be undecided about what they're using and what they're presenting to people then Open Suse, and their products, are just going to end up as one big mass of flaming (just look at some of the bug reports) and uncoordinated duplicate efforts that just don't hand together. No wonder good people are leaving. Over to you Novell.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[12]: The problem with KDE
by pinky on Sun 21st Aug 2005 14:58 in reply to "RE[11]: The problem with KDE"
pinky Member since:
2005-07-15

>Novell and Suse should just focus desktop development around where their expertise is - namely YaST, Qt, KDE and possibly Java.

And what is if their expertise is Gtk+, GNOME and Mono?

Doing something useful for the community and their customers and get rid of this crap.

It's ok if you like KDE and Qt, i like it too.
But only because you and i like it doesn't mean that everyone else like it. And if Novell prefere the Gtk+, GNOME and Mono way, so be it.
Not everything is grep just because you don't like it.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[13]: The problem with KDE
by segedunum on Sun 21st Aug 2005 16:55 in reply to "RE[12]: The problem with KDE"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

And what is if their expertise is Gtk+, GNOME and Mono?

Suse has a long heritage of YaST, Qt, KDE and Java. Their expertise is not GTK, Gnome and Mono. That side of the business (if you can call it that) simply doesn't make any money whatsoever for Novell and Suse.

And if Novell prefere the Gtk+, GNOME and Mono way, so be it.

I don't know why you're saying that because they don't, but they appear to be very, very confused and have some internal divisions.

Not everything is grep just because you don't like it.

You're misunderstanding this totally. This is based on what Suse/Novell needs to do as a business to provide them sith some direction.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[12]: The problem with KDE
by Lumbergh on Sun 21st Aug 2005 20:22 in reply to "RE[11]: The problem with KDE"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

On what basis do I make that statement? Mono has had millions pumped into it for five years with zero (zilch, zip, nada) returns, and it still isn't usable to attract anybody from the Windows world. There is simply no market for it.

Haha, how many more millions have been pumped into KDE and by the desktop numbers we can only conclude that KDE is completely worthless too. You are quite insane if you think there is no market for Mono. Get this through your cobweb-infested brain, all of windows is going .NET, so just that fact makes Mono more important than KDE or Qt will ever be.

Look at Red Hat. They've focused around Gnome in Fedora, and now they're focusing on Java gcj development with Eclipse (where the market is on Linux and Unix), GTK and Gnome. Fantastic. It remains to be seen whether they've made quite the right choices, but that's something that is going to get them results.

Have you tried eclipse with GCJ? Bahah, its slow as molasses, and buggy as hell. Why don't they just wait for GCJ and Classpath to mature before handing off that buggy shit. Just let people download a mature, fast, stable runtime.

. Novell and Suse should just focus desktop development around where their expertise is - namely YaST, Qt, KDE and possibly Java.

Suse is a brand name, not a company. Ximian is in charge of desktop efforts. And obviously Novell as well as Redhat and Sun know that its completely insane to push any meaningful development on a desktop whose toolkit is controlled by the Trolls.

If Novell continue to be undecided about what they're using and what they're presenting to people then Open Suse, and their products, are just going to end up as one big mass of flaming (just look at some of the bug reports) and uncoordinated duplicate efforts that just don't hand together. No wonder good people are leaving. Over to you Novell.

I'm sure Novell appreciates the analysis. I agree with you in a way, Novell should probably ditch KDE completely, instead of pretending they still care about KDE.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[13]: The problem with KDE
by segedunum on Sun 21st Aug 2005 22:20 in reply to "RE[12]: The problem with KDE"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Haha, how many more millions have been pumped into KDE...

None whatsoever. I find that comment hilariously funny in view of the millions Eazel burned through on Nautilus (yes a file manager!) before they went out of business and Ximian on Evolution and Mono. How much did KDE spend on Konqueror, Kontact and their development tools?

Nuff said.

Get this through your cobweb-infested brain, all of windows is going .NET, so just that fact makes Mono more important than KDE or Qt will ever be.

You might want to get this through your cobweb infested brain - .-N-E-T i-s a W-i-n-d-o-w-s t-e-c-h-n-o-l-o-g-y. Windows technology is not portable between operating systems and is not portable to Mono. Indigo and Windows Forms are simply the tip of the iceberg. T-h-e m-a-r-k-e-t o-n L-i-n-u-x a-n-d U-n-i-x i-s C-+-+ a-n-d J-a-v-a. That's where the money is.

M-o-n-o m-a-k-e-s n-o m-o-n-e-y w-h-a-t-s-o-e-v-e-r.

There are also no development tools whatsoever for Mono. That finishes it right there.

Got that? Now wasn't that fun?

Have you tried eclipse with GCJ? Bahah, its slow as molasses, and buggy as hell.

As far as I'm concerned, Mono is slow as hell, but there you go. Anyway, at the moment, that's irrelevant as development is continuing. There is a market (you know, money?) for Java that Red Hat wants to get into, plus, there is an IDE and community and development tools around Eclipse. That's the clincher. Once they get that up and running it's bye, bye Mono.

Suse is a brand name

Suse is still a large division of Novell, and I wonder why they don't just get rid of the name and replace it with Novell like they did with Ximian. Funny that.

Ximian is in charge of desktop efforts.

Wonderful and easy statement to make, but unfortunately there is no such thing as Ximian now and as such there is simply no evidence that they are heading anything. Sorry, but you're fantasising again.

Please, tell us what this mythical Ximian division is up to, what their development efforts are and how we know this is the case. I'd love to know what happened to the Ximian Desktop (are their releases silent and covert now?).

If Ximian were in charge we would see a full-on, supported and focused XD and Gnome desktop with full support for Novell's admin tools, web applications written with Mono, Gnome tools expanded instead of YaST and Gnome as the default desktop on all their server products. Surprise, surprise, we don't see that any of that, do we? (ROTFL)

I have a feeling we've been down this avenue before, but it's fun to see you do it again.

know that its completely insane to push any meaningful development on a desktop whose toolkit is controlled by the Trolls.

Well, Sun have actually not come out and ever said Qt licensing or KDE was a problem. If you have a link to a Sun employee that has said that then please share it with us. Gnome was simply the best fit for Sun given their development (they like writing stuff in C and using CORBA).

It doesn't seem to stop Novell from developing YaST and its modules with Qt and it doesn't seem to stop them from developing KDE software like TaskJuggler (developed by Suse and Novell employees). Funny that.

I agree with you in a way, Novell should probably ditch KDE

Given that they're not and they're using it in core, money-making products like OES and SLES I highly doubt it. But there you go.

I notice you refuse to talk about Novell's core products though. Funny that.

instead of pretending they still care about KDE.

Well, considering they actually use it and develop meaningful software for their products with it it's obvious they do. I don't know why they pretend to care about Gnome by hyping meaningless software like F-Spot, which Novell itself in no way endorses, but there you go.

I love the ringer you put yourself through and I love your partiality to lost causes.

Reply Parent Score: 0