Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 5th Mar 2007 23:08 UTC
Microsoft Microsoft Office program manager Brian Jones, whose work has centered around the Open XML document format, now says the so-called format war with OpenDocument is officially over. The winner, he says, is both. Jones made the statement in a blog post over the weekend following the release by Novell of an Open XML translator for OpenOffice. The plug-in enables the free, open source productivity suite to open documents created in the Microsoft format, as well as saving OpenDocument files into Open XML.
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RE[7]: because they lost...
by nberardi on Wed 7th Mar 2007 16:58 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: because they lost..."
nberardi
Member since:
2005-07-10

God I hope you are never in a position to make any lasting changes, because look out world segedunum is going to make policy based on his own bias.

I think you need to read what you've quoted. The paragraph you are quoting is asking what on Earth the point is of referring to unspecified WordPerfect behaviour from 16 years ago and replicating it, rather than converting it over.

If you convert it, it will never act like the original. So why not support the original specification, which is most definitely defined somewhere. I am sure IBM has the source that they could open, after all they are sitting on the panel.

So what? You get an office suite that can open your older Microsoft Office documents and then 'Save As...' ODF. That has absolutely nothing to do with the new format that you've created, and there's simply no reason for your new format to simply dump every element of the old format into a new one just because it uses XML. In reality, it's still exactly the same format!

Yes but obviously you don't really understand how software is developed. What are the chances that when you open up WordPerfect there is going to be a Save As ODF? What are the chances that when you open up Word6 that there is going to be a Save As ODF? What are the chances that when you open up Word 2000 that there is going to be a Save As ODF? I can quickly answer that as none.

Microsoft Office 2007 is the only one that can do that for most of these files listed. Sure OOo has rudimentary support for these file types, but if you want a direct conversion and keep the formatting you are going to have to use Office 2007. Then what are the chances that in the Microsoft platform that people will have these as ODF compared to OOXML? I bet the number is very close to zero.

You may say this is Microsoft domination, maybe, but it doesn't bode well for ODF, and why support a format that is never going to go anywhere. Thank god there is a Microsoft made plug-in for OOo that reads OOXML, because I run OOo under FreeBSD and my friends regularly safe their documents in Office 2007 and Office 2003 formats.

In the years ahead I hope they continue to save them in the Office 2007 format since I know now that it is totally supported in OOo. Unlike the half supported Microsoft Office documents that are currently supported in OOo.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[8]: because they lost...
by ichi on Wed 7th Mar 2007 17:31 in reply to "RE[7]: because they lost..."
ichi Member since:
2007-03-06

why support a format that is never going to go anywhere.

Because, whether you think it's going somewhere or not, an open format is the only way to get us out of the huge mess we're in now.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[9]: because they lost...
by nberardi on Wed 7th Mar 2007 17:59 in reply to "RE[8]: because they lost..."
nberardi Member since:
2005-07-10

You know it's really amazing seeing you guys talk about Open formats. Because both are Open. You guys are just measuring who is more Open now. It is honestly very juvenile to ignore something a company brings to the table just because you don't like the company.

If Microsoft invented a cure for cancer, and gave it away for free, all you guys would be arguing over if the process for the cure of cancer was open. I have seen the OOS community totally ignore .NET because it came from Microsoft, even though it is more open and more standardized than Java. But since Java isn't produced by Microsoft you don't really care if it is standardized or open. You are just anti-Microsoft, not really pro Open Source.

BTW I know Java has just been recently released. And probably on the path to being standardized. However that still doesn't excuse the last 5 years.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[8]: because they lost...
by segedunum on Wed 7th Mar 2007 20:14 in reply to "RE[7]: because they lost..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

God I hope you are never in a position to make any lasting changes, because look out world segedunum is going to make policy based on his own bias.

Dude. We're stuck in world where backwards compatibility is a problem and where ODF came into being largely because of the mess that Microsoft's crap office formats have landed us in.

We live in a world where you can't even go reliably from one version of Office to the very next one without a document not opening properly. Anyone who believes you can simply open every seventeen year old document in the current version of Office is so full of it it isn't even funny. Governments don't want to be in that position, hence the whole open formats thing.

If you convert it, it will never act like the original.

Why not? You create a convertor for a particular format, you look at the elements within it and their behaviour and you convert that into the new format. Hardly rocket science. If something is lacking in the new format then you contribute something to it that will add the required behaviour, rather than slapping hundreds of pointless elements into the new format in the name of backwards compatibility - which you're going to have to continue to handle into the future.

You're talking about the hopeless situation we have today. I'm telling you about the way things should be, which is a large part of the reason why ODF has come about in the first place.

Yes but obviously you don't really understand how software is developed.

Well obviously. *rolls eyes*

What are the chances that when you open up WordPerfect there is going to be a Save As ODF?

Pretty good, considering it supports it.

What are the chances that when you open up Word6 that there is going to be a Save As ODF? What are the chances that when you open up Word 2000 that there is going to be a Save As ODF?

And whose problem is that? For those moving to ODF the only issue is that they're able to open their existing documents in a way that is good enough, make sure no data is lost (presentation is less of an issue) which you can largely do in Open Office and other suites now, and then make sure that their documents will always be support by a multitude of applications with ODF. Problem over. The fact that there isn't ODF support in legacy versions of Microsoft Office is neither here nor there, and is merely a a whinging argument made by Microsoft and OOXML supporters. That's Microsoft's choice.

You may say this is Microsoft domination, maybe, but it doesn't bode well for ODF, and why support a format that is never going to go anywhere.

All you're doing is what Microsoft and OOXML supporters are doing - throwing roadblocks down and telling everyone why something can't be done. "Oh it's too difficult!". All you've admitted there is that Microsoft will never support ODF, and that if we go down Microsoft's road then nothing will change.

Thank god there is a Microsoft made plug-in for OOo that reads OOXML, because I run OOo under FreeBSD and my friends regularly safe their documents in Office 2007 and Office 2003 formats.

Have you actually been reading the comments on this? I sincerely hope that your friends don't create complex OOXML documents, because it is going to be as equally difficult for Open Office as the current binary office formats. Except Open Office now has to support two different versions of the same format with the same problems. Brilliant eh?

In the years ahead I hope they continue to save them in the Office 2007 format since I know now that it is totally supported in OOo.

No you don't. At risk of repeating myself again, I suggest you do some reading as to why. There's been ample points made.

Unlike the half supported Microsoft Office documents that are currently supported in OOo.

They are still going to be partially supported because OOXML is exactly the same as the binary office format - in another form. It still has exactly the same pitfalls and dependencies as the older formats.

Reply Parent Score: 5