Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 7th Mar 2007 22:27 UTC
Java "Although the .NET vs. Java war is basically over for control of the Windows desktop, where .NET is sure to become the managed language of choice for new Windows desktop applications, there is a new battle brewing. That battle is for the Linux desktop. Now that Java has been open sourced under the GPL, even the most strict of the 'free software only' distributions can start bundling it and integrating it into their Linux distributions out of the box."
Thread beginning with comment 219487
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 01:20 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

*shakes head* Sun just doesn't get it - they keep pushing swing knowing full well the suckage factor that goes with using an interpreted GUI - the speed at which Swing applications are at, you might as well use GTK + Perl for all its worth.

GTK is now the GUI kit of choice on *NIX's; phone manufacturer's are now swooning around GTK and Linux for their future phones - so what is the point of Swing when the better choice would simply to move to SWT and be done with it?

Sure, you don't have perfect 'write once, run everywhere' but better to have something that actually has a decent level of integration with the operating system in regards to the GUI than trying to emulate all the operating systems in a half assed manner.

As for the 'example' with the calculator, the difference was pretty obvious - massive gaps between the border and widgets, lacking of inherieting the font settings etc.

As for his comparison between C# and Java, its plain stupid, it would be like me claiming that because there are more VB developers than Java ones, it some how makes VB a superior platform?

If Sun want to start making Java the language of choice for future Linux (or *NIX in general) development, then they need to stop pushing the dogma of 'write once, piss everyone off in the process" and instead realise that when something sucks, drop it, and god forbid, if IBM does actually make a damn good framework like Eclipse, then embrace it!

Heck, why doesn't Sun drop Netbeans, port the good stuff to Eclipse and work out an arrangement with IBM to bring Notes 8.0 to OpenSolaris? Its about being pragmatic which unfortunately Sun doesn't have a very good habit of doing - and when they do make that decision, its normally because on the bones of their ass - recent example of that is their final caving in to reviving Solaris x86 in face of the reality that SPARC royally sucks on anything less than an 8 way machine.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Hmmm
by pantheraleo on Thu 8th Mar 2007 01:51 in reply to "Hmmm"
pantheraleo Member since:
2007-03-07

> They keep pushing swing knowing full well the
> suckage factor that goes with using an interpreted
> GUI - the speed at which Swing applications are at,
> you might as well use GTK + Perl for all its worth.

You haven't used Swing lately have you? And you are dragging up and old argument that has not been true for several years now. Java does something called JIT, which compiles byte code down to native code based on intelligent runtime analysis. Swing is no slower these days that any other toolkit.

> phone manufacturer's are now swooning around GTK
> and Linux for their future phones

They are? Last time I checked, I can count on one hand the number of phones that run Linux. And I can't even think of one that uses GTK.

> Sure, you don't have perfect 'write once,
> run everywhere' but better to have something
> that actually has a decent level of integration
> with the operating system in regards to the GUI
> than trying to emulate all the operating systems
> in a half assed manner.

First of all, GTK is not even close to perfect write once run anywhere. In fact, it is basically a unix only toolkit. The Windows port of GTK is a joke that is for the most part, unmaintained. Serious bugs don't even get looked at for over a year, etc. And when it comes to Mac, GTK is non-existent unless you want to run X.

> As for the 'example' with the calculator,
> the difference was pretty obvious - massive
> gaps between the border and widgets, lacking
> of inherieting the font settings etc

All of which could be fixed with a little bit of tweaking. The reason the font was different is not because Swing didn't inherit the system font, but because the GNOME calculator does not use the system font. The GNOME calculator is using a custom font and custom font style, something Swing is fully capable of doing as well.

> it would be like me claiming that because there
> are more VB developers than Java ones

Except there aren't more VB developers than Java developers. Java is the most popular language in the world. And VB is actually experiencing a sharp decline in popularity--both of these statistics from an Evans Data survey. (http://cld.blog-city.com/evans_survey__visual_basic_and_vbnet_in_st...)

> then they need to stop pushing the dogma of
> 'write once, piss everyone off in the process"
> and instead realise that when something sucks,
> drop it, and god forbid, if IBM does actually
> make a damn good framework like Eclipse, then
> embrace it!

Swing actually does a better job of looking native than SWT does these days. Even an IBM DeveloperWorks article admits that. And besides, SWT is not the ideal answer either. Because when bugs show up in SWT, you have to fix them on every platform that SWT runs on. And no, SWT is not any faster than Swing.

> Heck, why doesn't Sun drop Netbeans

Because in many ways, Netbeans has surpassed Eclipse. And again, even an article on IBM Developerworks admits this.

> Its about being pragmatic which unfortunately
> Sun doesn't have a very good habit of doing

That's been true in the past. But ever since Jonathan Schwartz took the helm at Sun, he has been turning it on it's head. Jonathan Schwartz is a strong believer in open source. OpenSolaris will be relicensed under GPLv3 as well. And they revived Solaris x86 because A: Customers wanted it big time. And B: They recognized that Sparc is dead, just like Alpha is dead, and PowerPC is basically dead now as well (with the exception of embedded systems and gaming consoles).

You might want to give Sun another change now that Jonathan Schwartz is at the helm. Even Richard Stallman did. In fact, I quote directly from Richard Stallman: "Richard Stallman: "I think Sun has, well with this contribution, have contributed more than any other company to the free software community, in the form of software. And it shows leadership - it's an example I hope others will follow."

Here's the link the video where he says this, in case you want to watch it for yourself: http://sun.feedroom.com/?skin=oneclip&fr_story=FEEDROOM166554&rf=bm

Edited 2007-03-08 01:54

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 04:10 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

You haven't used Swing lately have you? And you are dragging up and old argument that has not been true for several years now. Java does something called JIT, which compiles byte code down to native code based on intelligent runtime analysis. Swing is no slower these days that any other toolkit.

Yes, I know about JIT, its nothing new - but Swing is still slow, still lacking snappiness and still overly complex to create applications with.

Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow.

They are? Last time I checked, I can count on one hand the number of phones that run Linux. And I can't even think of one that uses GTK.

Obviously you *DIDN'T* read what I posted - what is it with OSNEWS.COM people not actualy *READING* what people write? I said *FUTURE PHONES!* you know, phones that *MIGHT* be released in the future *SINCE* the development of a Linux industry development group for phones.

First of all, GTK is not even close to perfect write once run anywhere. In fact, it is basically a unix only toolkit. The Windows port of GTK is a joke that is for the most part, unmaintained. Serious bugs don't even get looked at for over a year, etc. And when it comes to Mac, GTK is non-existent unless you want to run X.

Then what is wrong with having GTK-SWT, Win32-SWT and Carbon-SWT - better that than the ugly mess that is swing and the crap performance that comes with it.

As for 'not any faster' - I've used Azeurus and Limewire; use them yourself and come back and claim which one is more 'teh snappy'.

You might want to give Sun another change now that Jonathan Schwartz is at the helm.

I'll give them 2 years; like I said last year, I'll give them to the end of 2008 to turn Solaris around; if it is still the same ugly mess along with Java, then I'll be better off hoping for mono to improve along with FreeBSD.

Like I said previously, when you have software developed by part time coders with better hardware support than Solaris, and development tools developed by enthusiasts which is easier to code with and perform better than Java, one really has to ask what the hell are they doing at Sun.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Hmmm
by binarycrusader on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:20 in reply to "Hmmm"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

*shakes head* Sun just doesn't get it - they keep pushing swing knowing full well the suckage factor that goes with using an interpreted GUI - the speed at which Swing applications are at, you might as well use GTK + Perl for all its worth.

Just because Swing doesn't meet your purposes does not mean that it doesn't meet Sun or other people's purposes.

I think Sun "gets it" just fine.

As far as SWT? That has its own fair share of criticisms which I won't bother covering since many other people have already more than adequately stated what its problems are.

Heck, why doesn't Sun drop Netbeans, port the good stuff to Eclipse and work out an arrangement with IBM to bring Notes 8.0 to OpenSolaris?

Maybe because there are a lot of people using NetBeans that really like it, like *their* customers? You do realise that the usage of NetBeans has *grown* significantly the past few years, right?

Why would they drop a product that is very popular, has a growing community, and that their customers want? That makes no sense.

...recent example of that is their final caving in to reviving Solaris x86 in face of the reality that SPARC royally sucks on anything less than an 8 way machine.

"caving in" ? I fail to see how a decision that made *years* ago now can be defined as a "recent example", nor do I see how you qualify it as caving in.

You also seem to be severly outdated in your performance analysis of Solaris and Sparc if you believe that Solaris "SPARC royally sucks on anything less than an 8 way machine."

The right tools for the right job.

I think Sun's significant turn around not only in image, but in hardware and otherwise proves that they're doing better than you claim.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:52 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

You also seem to be severly outdated in your performance analysis of Solaris and Sparc if you believe that Solaris "SPARC royally sucks on anything less than an 8 way machine."

Look at the Specint and specfp benchmarks of SPARC vs. AMD64/Intel Core 2, and compare prices; x86 still give the best bang for the buck, especially when it comes to workstations.

http://shop.sun.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Sun_NorthAmerica-...

$2895 for a low end, single core UltraSPARC IIIi workstation that gets its ass handed to it on a platter by a lower priced Opteron machine being sold by Sun? please. Price performance wise, UltraSPARC always come out worse.

Maybe if they shaved $1500 off the price, it would be in the realms of being realistic in regards to price/performance, but the amount demanded is simply unrealistic - wake up Sun, the days of expensive UNIX stations are long gone.

Compare the servers, an Opteron 4 way dual core machine to a similarly configured UltraSPARC machine - the x86 like the workstation will always outperform - the only saving grace for UltraSPARC is the fact can scale, but when you performance sucks that badly, you need all the scaling you can get your hands onto.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Hmmm
by c816 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:02 in reply to "Hmmm"
c816 Member since:
2007-03-01

"*shakes head* Sun just doesn't get it - they keep pushing swing knowing full well the suckage factor that goes with using an interpreted GUI - the speed at which Swing applications are at, you might as well use GTK + Perl for all its worth. "

Interpreted GUI??? Java has used a JIT compiler since the late 90's. It beats Microsoft's CLR 2 (used by .NET 3.0). Mono has the worst JIT compiler around.
Look at the benchmarks. Java smokes Mono into the ground:

http://www.shudo.net/jit/perf/

For the record Swing painting has had hardware acceleration since JDK 1.4 released in early 2002. Swing on JDK 6 for Linux has a very efficient OpenGL drawing pipeline.

Please refrain from making comments about something you clearly know very little about.

Edited 2007-03-08 09:05

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Hmmm
by dsmogor on Fri 9th Mar 2007 16:03 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

These benchmars are at least 1.5 year old. As all VMs are doing a constant optimization overhauls, they are meaningless today.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Hmmm
by c816 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:16 in reply to "Hmmm"
c816 Member since:
2007-03-01

Heck, why doesn't Sun drop Netbeans, port the good stuff to Eclipse

Are you high??

*Groan*. Eclipse is a pain, it doesn't provide half the features of Netbeans, unless you go shopping for endless commercial, proprietary plugins.

Eclipse is surviving on its reputation from 2001, when Netbeans used to suck. Since the release of Eclipse, Netbeans has improved dramatically, it has now surpassed Eclipse in terms of features and usability. The dramatic rise of Netbeans (triple digit annual growth in user numbers) should give you a hint about its popularity! I don't want to use Eclipse, I don't like Eclipse, and in 2007 it's primitive compared to Netbeans.

Reply Parent Score: 1