Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 7th Mar 2007 22:27 UTC
Java "Although the .NET vs. Java war is basically over for control of the Windows desktop, where .NET is sure to become the managed language of choice for new Windows desktop applications, there is a new battle brewing. That battle is for the Linux desktop. Now that Java has been open sourced under the GPL, even the most strict of the 'free software only' distributions can start bundling it and integrating it into their Linux distributions out of the box."
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RE: Hmmm
by pantheraleo on Thu 8th Mar 2007 01:51 UTC in reply to "Hmmm"
pantheraleo
Member since:
2007-03-07

> They keep pushing swing knowing full well the
> suckage factor that goes with using an interpreted
> GUI - the speed at which Swing applications are at,
> you might as well use GTK + Perl for all its worth.

You haven't used Swing lately have you? And you are dragging up and old argument that has not been true for several years now. Java does something called JIT, which compiles byte code down to native code based on intelligent runtime analysis. Swing is no slower these days that any other toolkit.

> phone manufacturer's are now swooning around GTK
> and Linux for their future phones

They are? Last time I checked, I can count on one hand the number of phones that run Linux. And I can't even think of one that uses GTK.

> Sure, you don't have perfect 'write once,
> run everywhere' but better to have something
> that actually has a decent level of integration
> with the operating system in regards to the GUI
> than trying to emulate all the operating systems
> in a half assed manner.

First of all, GTK is not even close to perfect write once run anywhere. In fact, it is basically a unix only toolkit. The Windows port of GTK is a joke that is for the most part, unmaintained. Serious bugs don't even get looked at for over a year, etc. And when it comes to Mac, GTK is non-existent unless you want to run X.

> As for the 'example' with the calculator,
> the difference was pretty obvious - massive
> gaps between the border and widgets, lacking
> of inherieting the font settings etc

All of which could be fixed with a little bit of tweaking. The reason the font was different is not because Swing didn't inherit the system font, but because the GNOME calculator does not use the system font. The GNOME calculator is using a custom font and custom font style, something Swing is fully capable of doing as well.

> it would be like me claiming that because there
> are more VB developers than Java ones

Except there aren't more VB developers than Java developers. Java is the most popular language in the world. And VB is actually experiencing a sharp decline in popularity--both of these statistics from an Evans Data survey. (http://cld.blog-city.com/evans_survey__visual_basic_and_vbnet_in_st...)

> then they need to stop pushing the dogma of
> 'write once, piss everyone off in the process"
> and instead realise that when something sucks,
> drop it, and god forbid, if IBM does actually
> make a damn good framework like Eclipse, then
> embrace it!

Swing actually does a better job of looking native than SWT does these days. Even an IBM DeveloperWorks article admits that. And besides, SWT is not the ideal answer either. Because when bugs show up in SWT, you have to fix them on every platform that SWT runs on. And no, SWT is not any faster than Swing.

> Heck, why doesn't Sun drop Netbeans

Because in many ways, Netbeans has surpassed Eclipse. And again, even an article on IBM Developerworks admits this.

> Its about being pragmatic which unfortunately
> Sun doesn't have a very good habit of doing

That's been true in the past. But ever since Jonathan Schwartz took the helm at Sun, he has been turning it on it's head. Jonathan Schwartz is a strong believer in open source. OpenSolaris will be relicensed under GPLv3 as well. And they revived Solaris x86 because A: Customers wanted it big time. And B: They recognized that Sparc is dead, just like Alpha is dead, and PowerPC is basically dead now as well (with the exception of embedded systems and gaming consoles).

You might want to give Sun another change now that Jonathan Schwartz is at the helm. Even Richard Stallman did. In fact, I quote directly from Richard Stallman: "Richard Stallman: "I think Sun has, well with this contribution, have contributed more than any other company to the free software community, in the form of software. And it shows leadership - it's an example I hope others will follow."

Here's the link the video where he says this, in case you want to watch it for yourself: http://sun.feedroom.com/?skin=oneclip&fr_story=FEEDROOM166554&rf=bm

Edited 2007-03-08 01:54

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 04:10 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

You haven't used Swing lately have you? And you are dragging up and old argument that has not been true for several years now. Java does something called JIT, which compiles byte code down to native code based on intelligent runtime analysis. Swing is no slower these days that any other toolkit.

Yes, I know about JIT, its nothing new - but Swing is still slow, still lacking snappiness and still overly complex to create applications with.

Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow.

They are? Last time I checked, I can count on one hand the number of phones that run Linux. And I can't even think of one that uses GTK.

Obviously you *DIDN'T* read what I posted - what is it with OSNEWS.COM people not actualy *READING* what people write? I said *FUTURE PHONES!* you know, phones that *MIGHT* be released in the future *SINCE* the development of a Linux industry development group for phones.

First of all, GTK is not even close to perfect write once run anywhere. In fact, it is basically a unix only toolkit. The Windows port of GTK is a joke that is for the most part, unmaintained. Serious bugs don't even get looked at for over a year, etc. And when it comes to Mac, GTK is non-existent unless you want to run X.

Then what is wrong with having GTK-SWT, Win32-SWT and Carbon-SWT - better that than the ugly mess that is swing and the crap performance that comes with it.

As for 'not any faster' - I've used Azeurus and Limewire; use them yourself and come back and claim which one is more 'teh snappy'.

You might want to give Sun another change now that Jonathan Schwartz is at the helm.

I'll give them 2 years; like I said last year, I'll give them to the end of 2008 to turn Solaris around; if it is still the same ugly mess along with Java, then I'll be better off hoping for mono to improve along with FreeBSD.

Like I said previously, when you have software developed by part time coders with better hardware support than Solaris, and development tools developed by enthusiasts which is easier to code with and perform better than Java, one really has to ask what the hell are they doing at Sun.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Hmmm
by binarycrusader on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:29 in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

I'll give them 2 years; like I said last year, I'll give them to the end of 2008 to turn Solaris around; if it is still the same ugly mess along with Java, then I'll be better off hoping for mono to improve along with FreeBSD.

As usual, you persist in making unprovable claims about Solaris such as "ugly mess." If you were willing to list specific, valid, verifiable, and undeniable issues that can prove that Solaris is an "ugly mess" that are based on fact and not on anecdotal evidence (such as why your wireless or specific laptop doesn't work), I might believe you.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Hmmm
by Matzon on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:19 in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

"Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow. "

what the hell does this have to do with Java as a language or platform?
However all of this is possible in matisse.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Hmmm
by c816 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:32 in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
c816 Member since:
2007-03-01

Yes, I know about JIT, its nothing new - but Swing is still slow, still lacking snappiness and still overly complex to create applications with.

It sounds like kaiwai needs to upgrade his 486!

I have had no problems running swing on any recent hardware. It you are finding it slow then you either have an old machine without much RAM, an old JDK, or very inefficient display drivers.

If you "know" about JIT why do you still keep talking about "interpreted GUI"?

Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow.

We've had that feature in Netbeans since version 5.0 (over a year ago). Perhaps if you weren't so obsessed with Eclipse...

Reply Parent Score: 1