Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 7th Mar 2007 22:27 UTC
Java "Although the .NET vs. Java war is basically over for control of the Windows desktop, where .NET is sure to become the managed language of choice for new Windows desktop applications, there is a new battle brewing. That battle is for the Linux desktop. Now that Java has been open sourced under the GPL, even the most strict of the 'free software only' distributions can start bundling it and integrating it into their Linux distributions out of the box."
Thread beginning with comment 219529
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[2]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 04:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

You haven't used Swing lately have you? And you are dragging up and old argument that has not been true for several years now. Java does something called JIT, which compiles byte code down to native code based on intelligent runtime analysis. Swing is no slower these days that any other toolkit.

Yes, I know about JIT, its nothing new - but Swing is still slow, still lacking snappiness and still overly complex to create applications with.

Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow.

They are? Last time I checked, I can count on one hand the number of phones that run Linux. And I can't even think of one that uses GTK.

Obviously you *DIDN'T* read what I posted - what is it with OSNEWS.COM people not actualy *READING* what people write? I said *FUTURE PHONES!* you know, phones that *MIGHT* be released in the future *SINCE* the development of a Linux industry development group for phones.

First of all, GTK is not even close to perfect write once run anywhere. In fact, it is basically a unix only toolkit. The Windows port of GTK is a joke that is for the most part, unmaintained. Serious bugs don't even get looked at for over a year, etc. And when it comes to Mac, GTK is non-existent unless you want to run X.

Then what is wrong with having GTK-SWT, Win32-SWT and Carbon-SWT - better that than the ugly mess that is swing and the crap performance that comes with it.

As for 'not any faster' - I've used Azeurus and Limewire; use them yourself and come back and claim which one is more 'teh snappy'.

You might want to give Sun another change now that Jonathan Schwartz is at the helm.

I'll give them 2 years; like I said last year, I'll give them to the end of 2008 to turn Solaris around; if it is still the same ugly mess along with Java, then I'll be better off hoping for mono to improve along with FreeBSD.

Like I said previously, when you have software developed by part time coders with better hardware support than Solaris, and development tools developed by enthusiasts which is easier to code with and perform better than Java, one really has to ask what the hell are they doing at Sun.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[3]: Hmmm
by binarycrusader on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:29 in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06

I'll give them 2 years; like I said last year, I'll give them to the end of 2008 to turn Solaris around; if it is still the same ugly mess along with Java, then I'll be better off hoping for mono to improve along with FreeBSD.

As usual, you persist in making unprovable claims about Solaris such as "ugly mess." If you were willing to list specific, valid, verifiable, and undeniable issues that can prove that Solaris is an "ugly mess" that are based on fact and not on anecdotal evidence (such as why your wireless or specific laptop doesn't work), I might believe you.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:03 in reply to "RE[3]: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

As usual, you persist in making unprovable claims about Solaris such as "ugly mess." If you were willing to list specific, valid, verifiable, and undeniable issues that can prove that Solaris is an "ugly mess" that are based on fact and not on anecdotal evidence (such as why your wireless or specific laptop doesn't work), I might believe you.

Latest stable version of Solaris (Solaris 10 11/06) and my complaints so far - numbered so you can answer to each one of them:

1) Intel 3945 a/b/g support - NDIS does not support it as there is a known issue with it; promises are of plenty in regards to when its going to arrive.

The alternative is waiting for the OpenBSD driver to be ported - it has alread been/currently ported to NetBSD and FreeBSD, with a couple of revisions so far to address WPA support and so forth.

Where is Sun on this? This is one of the biggest selling wireless chipsets on the market - and yes, there are IT people out there who do want to run Solaris on their x86 laptop, and you know, these people might also wish to show off the capabilities of Solaris to their clients.

2) Audio card is not supported; OpenSound is a drama of pain and missery; I can't hear sound from audio files as they keep skipping around when playing them, no audio comes from cds being played.

3) Ancient version of GNOME is included; not just "oh, its one release behind", hell, I could put up with that, I don't expect the bleeding edge, but when a user wants to download CODEC support for mp3 play back, one shouldn't need to have to download the whole damn toolchain and muddle through only to find that none of it compiles - which goes onto my forth point.

4) How come I can go ./configure on my Fedora box, and I don't have constant conflicts between the GNU version and one included with Solaris - sorry, there is no way to specify that I want the GNU version rather than the Sun one to be used when compiling.

Paths not being setup correctly right from the beginning, I shouldn't need to setup weird and obscure paths; if I have installed my development tools in the standard location, I expect to be able to drop down to bash and go 'make' or 'cc' or 'c++' and find that everything just works - I can do that on Linux or FreeBSD, why can't I do it on Solaris?

Want me to expand more? Maybe I should put up an elaborate 'whinge and bitch' section on my blog to point out all the failings of Solaris? this is actually an honest question, would you like that, so then you can address those deficiences.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: Hmmm
by Matzon on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:19 in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
Matzon Member since:
2005-07-06

"Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow. "

what the hell does this have to do with Java as a language or platform?
However all of this is possible in matisse.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 10:04 in reply to "RE[3]: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

what the hell does this have to do with Java as a language or platform?
However all of this is possible in matisse.


Again, you seem to suffer from osnews-a-litus - the affliction of replying to posts with out actually reading the bloody thing.

I said that Java as a language was complex and over engineered - and gave an example of how its gotten to the point that you can't do something as basic as assigning code to widgets.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: Hmmm
by c816 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:32 in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
c816 Member since:
2007-03-01

Yes, I know about JIT, its nothing new - but Swing is still slow, still lacking snappiness and still overly complex to create applications with.

It sounds like kaiwai needs to upgrade his 486!

I have had no problems running swing on any recent hardware. It you are finding it slow then you either have an old machine without much RAM, an old JDK, or very inefficient display drivers.

If you "know" about JIT why do you still keep talking about "interpreted GUI"?

Try assigning some widgets to a form, double clicking, assigning code and compiling - you can't do that with Java; thats how bloody painful Java is in its current form. Little or none have been to make Java a RAD tool, its still overly complex and slow.

We've had that feature in Netbeans since version 5.0 (over a year ago). Perhaps if you weren't so obsessed with Eclipse...

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 10:11 in reply to "RE[3]: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

And like a large number of people on osnews.com, you never read the post or the follow up posts relating to what I write.

Here is a tip; read, think, think, think, and think again THEN think about what you're to write, write it, read it, then think think think, then post.

JIT still results in the delay between excution and the result - the result is a sluggish gui no matter how the problems are coded around.

As for "Netbeans since version 5.0" I doubt it, I've used 5.0 and its just as bad as previous versions; I can't stand Eclipse but atleast there is something being yielded out of it in the way of a decent collaboration tool vs. the out of date rubbish bundled with Solaris.

Reply Parent Score: 1