Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 7th Mar 2007 22:32 UTC, submitted by twenex
KDE The KDE 4 release team started a discussion about a possible release schedule for KDE 4. Of course nothing is set yet but the topic is now hot and some interesting problems and point of views come up. In other but related news Oxygen hit the mirrors, or better, kdelibs.
Thread beginning with comment 219547
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[4]: jumping the gun?
by aseigo on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: jumping the gun?"
aseigo
Member since:
2005-07-06

> have an open project but can't talk about it,
> doesn't that already make it a closed project

great question!

see, the assumption here is that openness is considered without the accompanying concepts of respect and responsibility.

it's sort of like nature and living things in general. just because you can choke a breathing thing to death, doesn't mean you should. it's even more absurd to think you can and then complain about it no longer being alive.

just because a project is conversing in the open doesn't mean that it is right, defensible or long-term sustainable to bring those conversations into venues that are not appropriate.

which is to say, it is time people started realizing that they are part of the process and the system. that their (your) actions do have consequences.

we can certainly take these conversations private. the question is whether you want us to, and whether that's the best thing for you.

what do you think?

if you think it wouldn't be the best thing, then how can you (and those involved in this matter) make sure that doesn't happen?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: jumping the gun?
by smitty on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:21 in reply to "RE[4]: jumping the gun?"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

see, the assumption here is that openness is considered without the accompanying concepts of respect and responsibility.

OK, I get that. I've even complained about some of Thom's decisions in the past.

we can certainly take these conversations private. the question is whether you want us to, and whether that's the best thing for you.

what do you think?


I definitely do not want these conversations private - but I have to admit that if this hadn't been publicized (I saw if first on linuxtoday.com) as you wish then I would have never known about it. At which point there doesn't really seem to be any point to having the discussion in the open at all. You could always have them in private and then post the discussion later when you don't care if it comes out.

What I'm hearing from you is that you do want some discussions to be private, and if that is the case then you might be better off doing that regardless of the complaining certain people will do.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by aseigo on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:27 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> At which point there doesn't really seem to be any
> point to having the discussion in the open at all

wrong! to *you* there wouldn't have been any point. but to everyone actually trying to actively get involved with the process (e.g. not just post it on their blog or personal news site) it would matter. they can't do that if the conversation is hermetically sealed.

iow, this is screwing it up for those people with a bit of initiative, talent and time (aka "the next generation of developers").

the fact that those who aren't actually involved are ok with taking actions that result in the degradation of service that allows those who can be involved to do so is really short sighted and, to be honest, pathetic.

Edited 2007-03-08 07:28

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: jumping the gun?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 8th Mar 2007 12:05 in reply to "RE[4]: jumping the gun?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

which is to say, it is time people started realizing that they are part of the process and the system. that their (your) actions do have consequences.

The thing is, Aaron, I'm not part of KDE; as far as I can remember at least (who knows what I do when I'm drunk).

I can draw a rather disturbing conclusion from your posts in this thread thus far.

The past years, many Microsoft folk gave expected release dates (whether a precise date or i.e. a month) concerning Windows Vista. None of these were officially announced release dates (i.e. no press releases, no nothing). They were just unofficial estimates. Yet, every technology newssite out there reported these dates. So did we. It wasn't until early November 2006 that Microsoft officially set the release dates [1]-- dates they met, by the way.

Now, according to your logic, we should have never reported on the previously mentioned (by MS employees or representatives) release dates.

Basically, the conclusion I mentioned is this: it seems as if you want newssites to only report on 'official' matters; matters that have been properly announced. Now, that is of course completely ridiculous. It is the job of the journalist to *find* news, whether the involved parties like it or not. KDE4 has been in the making for quite a while now, and, dare I say it, it has even been hyped (I'm ducking for cover right now); of course people are then interested in the first discussion among KDE developers about possible release dates!

Does the fact that OSNews reports on this discussion mess up the process? While I appreciate the influence you attribute to us, I personally don't think it will. Neither do you.

What you are afraid of is that you will not be able to make the release date mentioned in the discussion. This, Aaron, has nothing to do with us. If you can't make the release date, then that's your problem, not ours. Let it slip in a few months, or adjust it now, do whatever you want; but please do not blame the "press" for your own problems and insecurities in meeting the seemingly optimistic release date.

Because, Aaron, if you are confident you can make the October date... What's all the hubbub here about?

[1] http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=16371

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by ralph on Thu 8th Mar 2007 14:04 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
ralph Member since:
2005-07-10

The thing is, Aaron, I'm not part of KDE

And nobody claimed you were. You are however, as Aaron rightly states, part of the process, as in your actions do have consequences. Now this is a simple fact and this leaves you with having to make responsible judgements. That you seem so shocked by this suggestion is deeply disturbing, to say the least.

Now, according to your logic, we should have never reported on the previously mentioned (by MS employees or representatives) release dates.

I hope you don't mind me being so frank, but this is really silly. Equating covering public anouncements by MS employees with covering an internal discussion of an open source project is a stretch, to put it mildly.

It is the job of the journalist to *find* news, whether the involved parties like it or not.

And it's also the job of the journalist to make a judgement on what to do with the information he has. Release it or not release, if so, how and when.

Really Tom, that's journalism 101. I can't believe how you react to someone merely suggesting that you carry a responsibility as a journalist.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by nutshell42 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 15:29 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
nutshell42 Member since:
2006-01-12

The past years, many Microsoft folk gave expected release dates (whether a precise date or i.e. a month) concerning Windows Vista. None of these were officially announced release dates (i.e. no press releases, no nothing). They were just unofficial estimates. Yet, every technology newssite out there reported these dates. So did we. It wasn't until early November 2006 that Microsoft officially set the release dates [1]-- dates they met, by the way.

Now, according to your logic, we should have never reported on the previously mentioned (by MS employees or representatives) release dates.


Ok, Thom, I've read your discussion and I can see the points both of you are trying to make. But now you just lost me. WTF would we (as in the OSNews readership) have missed if you hadn't posted all those release dates that MS didn't make anyway? It's not like you wouldn't have been able to point out that Vista's taking its time just because there's no official date.


Also while -AIS- I can agree with your argument that you should be free to post the news that this thread on the KDE-ML is happening, I really think the discussion as such without any results lacks news value.

What's next?

KDE4 QC only?
"Sources report KDE-hacker A mentioned the word 'quantum computer' on KDE-crap yesterday. Will KDE4 run only on systems beyond our imagination? Click 'Read More' for our 4 page analysis."

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by aseigo on Thu 8th Mar 2007 19:07 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> I'm not part of KDE

no, but you are part of the greater open source community acting as a journalistic outlet. not being part of a specific project doesn't somehow relieve you of responsibility.

> Microsoft folk gave expected release dates

right, and i had no problem when people would repeat that i'd said we were aiming for the summer. turns out we might be aiming for the autumn instead. no complaints from me here.

but this wasn't a rumbling about possible/expected release dates, this was an internal discussion to set out a release roadmap. it was something we wanted to take to the kde contributors first.

you may have even read the email where someone suggested announcing it publicly sooner, but then cornelius said we should take it to the kde developers first out of respect.

in spite of that "no, let's not announce it publicly at this point until we have done the respectful thing to our fellow developers" message in that exact thread that was linked, lurkers decided to go ahead and do so anyways.

see, there is a difference between someone (e.g. me) opening their mouth in a known "PR" context and pulling out conversation that is not yet ready for that. yes, you -can-, but it doesn't mean you -should- and nor does that make it right.

> Does the fact that OSNews reports on this
> discussion mess up the process?

not just osnews, but the other blogs and sites (e.g. linuxtoday also carried it). and to answer your question: yes, this does make the process harder than necessary.

> What you are afraid of is that you will not be able
> to make the release date mentioned in the
> discussion

when will you learn that you are miserable and figuring out what i'm thinking and stop trying to pull that trick?

what i'm concerned about is that other kde developers will hear about the discussion first from linuxtoday or osnews and figure that decisions are being made without their input and consultation. that is not how we (kde) work, and it is not how this was going. the release team is preparing a plan, then we take it for community review and then we talk about it. this process is out of respect for our fellow developers, and they know that. when it gets circumvented, people feel, quite rightfully, that they are being cut out of things. in this case, they aren't, but it's easy for that opinion to get formed. i've been around this tree before a few times, and i really would like to avoid it in the future. those carrying this story are not helping and not being respectful of our processes.

> Because, Aaron, if you are confident you can make
> the October date

that's a strawman argument. =/

Edited 2007-03-08 19:08

Reply Parent Score: 5