Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 7th Mar 2007 22:27 UTC
Java "Although the .NET vs. Java war is basically over for control of the Windows desktop, where .NET is sure to become the managed language of choice for new Windows desktop applications, there is a new battle brewing. That battle is for the Linux desktop. Now that Java has been open sourced under the GPL, even the most strict of the 'free software only' distributions can start bundling it and integrating it into their Linux distributions out of the box."
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RE[3]: Hmmm
by binarycrusader on Thu 8th Mar 2007 07:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Hmmm"
binarycrusader
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'll give them 2 years; like I said last year, I'll give them to the end of 2008 to turn Solaris around; if it is still the same ugly mess along with Java, then I'll be better off hoping for mono to improve along with FreeBSD.

As usual, you persist in making unprovable claims about Solaris such as "ugly mess." If you were willing to list specific, valid, verifiable, and undeniable issues that can prove that Solaris is an "ugly mess" that are based on fact and not on anecdotal evidence (such as why your wireless or specific laptop doesn't work), I might believe you.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:03 in reply to "RE[3]: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

As usual, you persist in making unprovable claims about Solaris such as "ugly mess." If you were willing to list specific, valid, verifiable, and undeniable issues that can prove that Solaris is an "ugly mess" that are based on fact and not on anecdotal evidence (such as why your wireless or specific laptop doesn't work), I might believe you.

Latest stable version of Solaris (Solaris 10 11/06) and my complaints so far - numbered so you can answer to each one of them:

1) Intel 3945 a/b/g support - NDIS does not support it as there is a known issue with it; promises are of plenty in regards to when its going to arrive.

The alternative is waiting for the OpenBSD driver to be ported - it has alread been/currently ported to NetBSD and FreeBSD, with a couple of revisions so far to address WPA support and so forth.

Where is Sun on this? This is one of the biggest selling wireless chipsets on the market - and yes, there are IT people out there who do want to run Solaris on their x86 laptop, and you know, these people might also wish to show off the capabilities of Solaris to their clients.

2) Audio card is not supported; OpenSound is a drama of pain and missery; I can't hear sound from audio files as they keep skipping around when playing them, no audio comes from cds being played.

3) Ancient version of GNOME is included; not just "oh, its one release behind", hell, I could put up with that, I don't expect the bleeding edge, but when a user wants to download CODEC support for mp3 play back, one shouldn't need to have to download the whole damn toolchain and muddle through only to find that none of it compiles - which goes onto my forth point.

4) How come I can go ./configure on my Fedora box, and I don't have constant conflicts between the GNU version and one included with Solaris - sorry, there is no way to specify that I want the GNU version rather than the Sun one to be used when compiling.

Paths not being setup correctly right from the beginning, I shouldn't need to setup weird and obscure paths; if I have installed my development tools in the standard location, I expect to be able to drop down to bash and go 'make' or 'cc' or 'c++' and find that everything just works - I can do that on Linux or FreeBSD, why can't I do it on Solaris?

Want me to expand more? Maybe I should put up an elaborate 'whinge and bitch' section on my blog to point out all the failings of Solaris? this is actually an honest question, would you like that, so then you can address those deficiences.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Hmmm
by c816 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 09:40 in reply to "RE[4]: Hmmm"
c816 Member since:
2007-03-01

Latest stable version of Solaris (Solaris 10 11/06) and my complaints so far - numbered so you can answer to each one of them:

I can create a much longer numbered list for Linux. I recently installed it after using Solaris. With the exception of not supporting my sound card, I had fewer issues getting Solaris installed than Linux (I was genuinely surprised). My system isn't anything fancy, just a home assembled set of stock components, so it is a bit amusing that Solaris was easier to install.

If you wan't to run Solaris on your desktop, use Solaris Express (think of it in the same way as the relationship between Fedora and Red Hat Enterprise Linux). The express edition comes with proper NVidia drivers, unlike most linux distros. Perhaps that's why you find Swing slow?

Edited 2007-03-08 09:44

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Hmmm
by dsmogor on Fri 9th Mar 2007 16:01 in reply to "RE[4]: Hmmm"
dsmogor Member since:
2005-09-01

Actually I routinely use Java apps on linux and for about 3 years swing has most redraw issues resolved (at least when using default theme).
In numerous cases I have actually noticed it beating gtk when using similar widgets with scrolling text area being the most glaring example (try comparing large text in jedit to gedit).
If only somebody wrote a working QT backend for SWT...
I know this is more of a testament of gtk architectural problems that swing snappyness but still having reasonably snappy toolkit with so rich architecture, fully drawn by jit vm is a monumental achievement.
I can only fear how decision to use gtk to draw its widgets will affect performance. Hopefully this can be turned off by default.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Hmmm
by binarycrusader on Mon 12th Mar 2007 12:11 in reply to "RE[4]: Hmmm"
binarycrusader Member since:
2005-07-06


1) Intel 3945 a/b/g support


Which as I pointed out before, is anecdotal. The support of one piece of hardware cannot in any way prove solaris is an "ugly mess." It means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

2) Audio card is not supported;

Which again means nothing about Solaris as a platform. The SoundBlaster X-Fi isn't supported on Linux either, I fail to see the relavance of this to "ugly mess."

3) Ancient version of GNOME is included;

Which again is irrelevant to "ugly mess" as a platform. Remember that Sun has a business commitment to their customers to binary compatibility, documentation, etc. which all place certain constraints and limitations on versions of software included. Sun has been upgrading and working on integrating the latest versions of GNOME in their internal development versions. However, they are not yet ready to be integrated into Solaris 10.

4) How come I can go ./configure on my Fedora box, and I don't have constant conflicts between the GNU version and one included with Solaris - sorry, there is no way to specify that I want the GNU version rather than the Sun one to be used when compiling.

Here I know you don't know what is actually happening. There are no conflicts between Solaris and GNU versions of utilities since anywhere there is a conflict the GNU versions are prefixed with a 'g' in their name.

And actually, there is a way to specify which version you want. It's called using path properly, or using the correct ./configure options. There is also little reason to use the GNU versions with ./configure since it properly support a true UNIX environment. I have compiled many open source programs on Solaris without using any GNU tools at all.

There are many ways for you to setup a completely GNU based build environment if you so choose.

Paths not being setup correctly right from the beginning

Paths are setup exactly as they are supposed to be setup at the beginning. Therefore they are setup correctly. Paths are supposed to be set by the user based on the work they are performing and the type of environment they want to use. Therefore it is your responsibility to configure them as appropriate for your needs.

Users that want to compile and build their own tools are expected to select the appropriate environment using the path. This meets with UNIX and POSIX standards as well as Solaris backwards compatibility and other requirements.


Want me to expand more?


Yes, since so far everything you've had is a matter of personal preference, something that is not a problem or bug, or something that is merely anecdotal evidence. Nothing you said has in any factual way made me believe that Solaris is an "ugly mess." In fact, you have only proven that you don't understand the UNIX platform. Linux is NOT UNIX, and therefore does not provide a true UNIX development environment; nor is it fully POSIX compliant, unlike Solaris.

Reply Parent Score: 2