Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 7th Mar 2007 22:32 UTC, submitted by twenex
KDE The KDE 4 release team started a discussion about a possible release schedule for KDE 4. Of course nothing is set yet but the topic is now hot and some interesting problems and point of views come up. In other but related news Oxygen hit the mirrors, or better, kdelibs.
Thread beginning with comment 219610
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[5]: jumping the gun?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 8th Mar 2007 12:05 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: jumping the gun?"
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

which is to say, it is time people started realizing that they are part of the process and the system. that their (your) actions do have consequences.

The thing is, Aaron, I'm not part of KDE; as far as I can remember at least (who knows what I do when I'm drunk).

I can draw a rather disturbing conclusion from your posts in this thread thus far.

The past years, many Microsoft folk gave expected release dates (whether a precise date or i.e. a month) concerning Windows Vista. None of these were officially announced release dates (i.e. no press releases, no nothing). They were just unofficial estimates. Yet, every technology newssite out there reported these dates. So did we. It wasn't until early November 2006 that Microsoft officially set the release dates [1]-- dates they met, by the way.

Now, according to your logic, we should have never reported on the previously mentioned (by MS employees or representatives) release dates.

Basically, the conclusion I mentioned is this: it seems as if you want newssites to only report on 'official' matters; matters that have been properly announced. Now, that is of course completely ridiculous. It is the job of the journalist to *find* news, whether the involved parties like it or not. KDE4 has been in the making for quite a while now, and, dare I say it, it has even been hyped (I'm ducking for cover right now); of course people are then interested in the first discussion among KDE developers about possible release dates!

Does the fact that OSNews reports on this discussion mess up the process? While I appreciate the influence you attribute to us, I personally don't think it will. Neither do you.

What you are afraid of is that you will not be able to make the release date mentioned in the discussion. This, Aaron, has nothing to do with us. If you can't make the release date, then that's your problem, not ours. Let it slip in a few months, or adjust it now, do whatever you want; but please do not blame the "press" for your own problems and insecurities in meeting the seemingly optimistic release date.

Because, Aaron, if you are confident you can make the October date... What's all the hubbub here about?

[1] http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=16371

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by ralph on Thu 8th Mar 2007 14:04 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
ralph Member since:
2005-07-10

The thing is, Aaron, I'm not part of KDE

And nobody claimed you were. You are however, as Aaron rightly states, part of the process, as in your actions do have consequences. Now this is a simple fact and this leaves you with having to make responsible judgements. That you seem so shocked by this suggestion is deeply disturbing, to say the least.

Now, according to your logic, we should have never reported on the previously mentioned (by MS employees or representatives) release dates.

I hope you don't mind me being so frank, but this is really silly. Equating covering public anouncements by MS employees with covering an internal discussion of an open source project is a stretch, to put it mildly.

It is the job of the journalist to *find* news, whether the involved parties like it or not.

And it's also the job of the journalist to make a judgement on what to do with the information he has. Release it or not release, if so, how and when.

Really Tom, that's journalism 101. I can't believe how you react to someone merely suggesting that you carry a responsibility as a journalist.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by nutshell42 on Thu 8th Mar 2007 15:29 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
nutshell42 Member since:
2006-01-12

The past years, many Microsoft folk gave expected release dates (whether a precise date or i.e. a month) concerning Windows Vista. None of these were officially announced release dates (i.e. no press releases, no nothing). They were just unofficial estimates. Yet, every technology newssite out there reported these dates. So did we. It wasn't until early November 2006 that Microsoft officially set the release dates [1]-- dates they met, by the way.

Now, according to your logic, we should have never reported on the previously mentioned (by MS employees or representatives) release dates.


Ok, Thom, I've read your discussion and I can see the points both of you are trying to make. But now you just lost me. WTF would we (as in the OSNews readership) have missed if you hadn't posted all those release dates that MS didn't make anyway? It's not like you wouldn't have been able to point out that Vista's taking its time just because there's no official date.


Also while -AIS- I can agree with your argument that you should be free to post the news that this thread on the KDE-ML is happening, I really think the discussion as such without any results lacks news value.

What's next?

KDE4 QC only?
"Sources report KDE-hacker A mentioned the word 'quantum computer' on KDE-crap yesterday. Will KDE4 run only on systems beyond our imagination? Click 'Read More' for our 4 page analysis."

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: jumping the gun?
by Hiev on Thu 8th Mar 2007 15:52 in reply to "RE[6]: jumping the gun?"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Im glad that Thom put this news if you don't like it don't read it and let those who are interested like me enjoy the news.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[7]: jumping the gun?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 8th Mar 2007 16:00 in reply to "RE[6]: jumping the gun?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

WTF would we (as in the OSNews readership) have missed if you hadn't posted all those release dates that MS didn't make anyway?

Nothing. But we could not know that in advance, now, could we?

I really think the discussion as such without any results lacks news value.

Have you read the thread? The proposed schedule will, with some minor changes, be made official over the weekend.

What's next?

This is not some random KDE hacker saying something random about a random part of KDE. This is a public discussion on the proposed (and soon to be official) release schedule of the long-awaited and much-talked about KDE 4.0.

If you don't see the news value in that, than you are probably not suited for running a site like this.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: jumping the gun?
by aseigo on Thu 8th Mar 2007 19:07 in reply to "RE[5]: jumping the gun?"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> I'm not part of KDE

no, but you are part of the greater open source community acting as a journalistic outlet. not being part of a specific project doesn't somehow relieve you of responsibility.

> Microsoft folk gave expected release dates

right, and i had no problem when people would repeat that i'd said we were aiming for the summer. turns out we might be aiming for the autumn instead. no complaints from me here.

but this wasn't a rumbling about possible/expected release dates, this was an internal discussion to set out a release roadmap. it was something we wanted to take to the kde contributors first.

you may have even read the email where someone suggested announcing it publicly sooner, but then cornelius said we should take it to the kde developers first out of respect.

in spite of that "no, let's not announce it publicly at this point until we have done the respectful thing to our fellow developers" message in that exact thread that was linked, lurkers decided to go ahead and do so anyways.

see, there is a difference between someone (e.g. me) opening their mouth in a known "PR" context and pulling out conversation that is not yet ready for that. yes, you -can-, but it doesn't mean you -should- and nor does that make it right.

> Does the fact that OSNews reports on this
> discussion mess up the process?

not just osnews, but the other blogs and sites (e.g. linuxtoday also carried it). and to answer your question: yes, this does make the process harder than necessary.

> What you are afraid of is that you will not be able
> to make the release date mentioned in the
> discussion

when will you learn that you are miserable and figuring out what i'm thinking and stop trying to pull that trick?

what i'm concerned about is that other kde developers will hear about the discussion first from linuxtoday or osnews and figure that decisions are being made without their input and consultation. that is not how we (kde) work, and it is not how this was going. the release team is preparing a plan, then we take it for community review and then we talk about it. this process is out of respect for our fellow developers, and they know that. when it gets circumvented, people feel, quite rightfully, that they are being cut out of things. in this case, they aren't, but it's easy for that opinion to get formed. i've been around this tree before a few times, and i really would like to avoid it in the future. those carrying this story are not helping and not being respectful of our processes.

> Because, Aaron, if you are confident you can make
> the October date

that's a strawman argument. =/

Edited 2007-03-08 19:08

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[7]: jumping the gun?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 8th Mar 2007 19:57 in reply to "RE[6]: jumping the gun?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

no, but you are part of the greater open source community acting as a journalistic outlet. not being part of a specific project doesn't somehow relieve you of responsibility.

Can I please decide for myself what community I'm part of? I'm not part of any "greater open source community" at all-- you do realise that the 'OS' in OSNews does not stand for 'open source', right?

I have zero responsibility to KDE or whatever other project. I have the responsibility to inform my readers of the topics we cover, and that happens to include KDE. Like I said before, if a project is discussing in a public mailinglist the release dates for a long-awaited and much anticipated new release, then that's something my readers would like to know. Hence, it constitutes as 'news'.

in spite of that "no, let's not announce it publicly at this point until we have done the respectful thing to our fellow developers" message in that exact thread that was linked, lurkers decided to go ahead and do so anyways.

Well, uhm, maybe because you guys were discussing the release date of the next major overhaul of one of the biggest desktop environments out there on a, like, public mailing list?

what i'm concerned about is that other kde developers will hear about the discussion first from linuxtoday or osnews and figure that decisions are being made without their input and consultation.

What part of "started a discussion about a possible release schedule" don't you understand?

that's a strawman argument. =/

That doesn't make it any less accurate, Aaron.

Edited 2007-03-08 19:59

Reply Parent Score: 1