Linked by Eugenia Loli on Sat 17th Mar 2007 00:26 UTC
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu During my 8 years of Linux on and off usage I have tried more distros than I have chocolate bars. Each one of my previous encounters meant that I had to spend at least 2 days configuring before I have a desktop that I was somewhat comfortable with. With Ubuntu Feisty Fawn's latest test beta --for the first time ever-- this was not the case. I was up and running with all the niceties I wanted within 2 hours.
Thread beginning with comment 222131
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
melkor
Member since:
2006-12-16

And that is Ubuntu's major problem imho. I dislike Gnome, much preferring KDE, yet *out of the box*, Ubuntu does NOT give me choice. Some say that that's to keep it simple, I honestly think it's bad for Linux. Everyone keeps saying 'but Linux gives you choice!!!' - strange that Ubuntu doesn't. How hard would it for Ubuntu to release a DVD instead of a CD and include the most popular desktop environment in Linux land?

Don't give me the Kubuntu bullshyte, cos that's just baloney. It gets far less attention, and has far less developers, resulting in a shoddy system. What we are seeing here is blatant favouritism for Gnome, rather than letting the end user choose what they want/prefer.

Until Ubuntu decides to support KDE properly, I won't use it, nor will I recommend it.

In fact, these days I don't use GNU/Linux at all, since several things I use aren't supported:

1. Photoshop CS2 (WINE/Cedega/CrossOver Office do not support it, not even with nasty hacks)
2. Neat Image (full of bugs under WINE, haven't tried Cedega/CrossOver office)
3. Capture One Pro (WINE says v3.6, although it has bugs, not sure on v3.7)
4. Canon EOS 1D DSLR - gphoto2 doesn't support this *major* pro camera whatsoever. Disappointing. Asking me to get off my a$$ and code drivers for this baby is what I consider elitist and a very unreasonable demand on the end user. It's one thing that gives GNU/Linux zealots a very bad name in the real world.

I have a Windows based PC, which is what I primarily use these days because Photoshop and Neat Image are Windows versions (I didn't have a Mac at the time of buying both software pieces). I love the Mac (older PowerMac G4 1ghz running 10.3.8), but until I have Mac versions of my software I won't switch totally.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 2

unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

From what I can tell kubuntu is not any worse/better than other KDE based distros. If you have any special needs perhaps you should tell them.

The rest of your problems unfortunately relates to market share and development costs. So why complain that your favorite programs doesn't run in wine or some wine derivate. Why not complain that they are not ported to native Linux to the company that made them, In this case Adobe and Canon.

Microsoft isn't even close to provide drivers for as many devices that Linux supports out of the box. Yet it is always a fault of Linux when some device doesn't work under Linux, and the fault of the device manufacturer if it doesn't work on Windows. We need to be careful to place blame where blame belongs.

Today the Linux desktop is easier to use, and looks better than current versions of Windows. What is holding it back is lack of applications that people are used to use. E.g. Gimp may be a good editor, but if you have used Photoshop half a lifetime it is unlikely that you will be prepared to relearn, at least not until Gimp is significantly better than Photoshop. Currently this is not the case.

Preloaded Linux would be nice too, but it is not as important to get commonly used apps ported. The main advantage with preloaded Linux, as I see it would be that there would be less machines that ship with windows. Modern Linuxes are so easy to install that everybody can install provided the hardware is supported.

Reply Parent Score: 4

robertojdohnert Member since:
2005-07-12

" From what I can tell kubuntu is not any worse/better than other KDE based distros. If you have any special needs perhaps you should tell them. "

If you want a better KDE based Ubuntu derivative besides Kubuntu I suggest SimplyMEPIS. Maybe Freespire or Linspire are better but I havent used Linspire much.

" Microsoft isn't even close to provide drivers for as many devices that Linux supports out of the box. Yet it is always a fault of Linux when some device doesn't work under Linux, and the fault of the device manufacturer if it doesn't work on Windows. We need to be careful to place blame where blame belongs. "

If you want Linux drivers from hardware manufacturers make your voice heard. Speak up. This is not a blame game. After working in both the hardware and software side of the business I can tell you this. A company is not going to do anything if it doesnt make A) Financial sense or B) there isnt demand for it. But its a give and take, if you want the device and app support you must be willing to abide by and follow the licensing terms of the manufacturer. Adobe at one time had Framemaker on Linux and they didnt follow through with it because when the community was polled Linux users wanted it for free or wanted Adobe to Open Source it.

" Today the Linux desktop is easier to use, and looks better than current versions of Windows. What is holding it back is lack of applications that people are used to use. E.g. Gimp may be a good editor, but if you have used Photoshop half a lifetime it is unlikely that you will be prepared to relearn, at least not until Gimp is significantly better than Photoshop. Currently this is not the case. "

I disagree. I like the Windows Vista look. Windows isnt as customizable out of the box as KDE or GNOME but Microsoft has the look down. if people want Photoshop on Linux until a native port is done I can testify that Photoshop works very reliably with Wine in its current version.

" Preloaded Linux would be nice too, but it is not as important to get commonly used apps ported. The main advantage with preloaded Linux, as I see it would be that there would be less machines that ship with windows. Modern Linuxes are so easy to install that everybody can install provided the hardware is supported."

The current plan for preloading is offering choice. either Linux or Windows. People will go with what they know. Linux needs the wow factor and when people find out that they may need to do more work to get a Linux machine up and running than they do a Windows machine whats the point?

Reply Parent Score: 1

melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

Eh? Excuse me? I've probably used Linux a whole lot more than you, and probably know a lot more about it. So, don't talk about my 'special needs'.

An operating system has to do what I need it to do. If it can't, then it's not suitable - period. At the moment, Linux continues to fragment. Whilst this is good, and offers choice to the user, the downside is that it doesn't encourage software vendors to port their software to Linux.

I'm not going to blame Canon, etc. I've done my bit, I've asked for them (previously) to support GNU/Linux. I can ask, but that doesn't mean I'll get what I want. If it makes you feel a bit better, an engineer at Canon Australia told me that they're looking to natively support Canon cameras in the near future for Linux. Adobe? I'd love Adobe to port Photoshop, and I honestly don't think that it'd be that hard for them. If they can get it running on OS X, then they can it with Linux as well. Unfortunately, I can't make Adobe port it. You could have a million emails go to Adobe, requesting that Photoshop be ported, in the end, they won't do it unless they feel that they have to. Photoshop is their baby, and they'll do what they please. Until Linux has an equally powerful, and usable Photo editing/imaging application, there'll be no pressure on Adobe to port. Plain and simple.

I can from the GIMP to Photoshop btw. I don't mind the GIMP, but it's simply not intuitive, and it doesn't let me do the things that I need to do, as a photographer. Plain and simple. Photoshop does. If Adobe ports to Linux, and the other pieces of software that I rely on are ported, I'd switch back in an instant. I prefer GNU/Linux, I prefer the GPL. Early in 2006 I needed to make a distinction - stay with Linux and be hampered as a photographer, or move back to Windows (or OS X) and grow as a photographer. I chose the latter.

You're not telling me something I don't know (drivers, etc), I've used Linux long enough and extensively enough to know what I'm doing. I'm not some newbie troll who has no idea what he's talking about.

Anyways, to me, Ubuntu doesn't give me choice, real choice. If it offered the 2 major desktop environments, I'd consider it. Until then, I can't honestly recommend Ubuntu. If it pleases you, 3 of my friends have tried Ubuntu and all have been unimpressed, with an attitude of "what's all the fuss about?". One much prefers Mandrive, another Fedora, and another Mepis.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 2

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I dislike Gnome, much preferring KDE, yet *out of the box*, Ubuntu does NOT give me choice... Everyone keeps saying 'but Linux gives you choice!!!' - strange that Ubuntu doesn't.

Part of the choice is that there are around a dozen major distributions to choose from. Ubuntu is merely one of these choices.

How hard would it for Ubuntu to release a DVD instead of a CD and include the most popular desktop environment in Linux land?

Not very hard, but they might as well release a CD for users who prefer GNOME and another for those who prefer KDE... which is what they do. I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from on DE popularity. I have a feeling that GNOME is currently more popular than KDE, but I think this is a cyclical thing. KDE used to be more popular, then GNOME reinvented itself and became more popular, and now we see KDE reinventing itself and gaining momentum.

Don't give me the Kubuntu bullshyte, cos that's just baloney. It gets far less attention, and has far less developers, resulting in a shoddy system. What we are seeing here is blatant favouritism for Gnome, rather than letting the end user choose what they want/prefer.

I'm not going to disagree with you. Kubuntu and Ubuntu share a great deal of development effort, but yes, Kubuntu tends to trail Ubuntu in overall polish. Remember, Linux is about choice. Ubuntu chooses GNOME. Who are you to deny them their right to choose?

There is no shortage of high-quality KDE-oriented distributions. Try MEPIS or PCLinuxOS, for example. The former is a relatively close derivative of Ubuntu with a focus on KDE and simplicity. The latter is a fork of Mandriva that uses APT tools to manage RPMs, which is unusual, but it seems to work really well.

Look, man, everybody's different. It isn't feasible for everybody to develop their own distribution, so we only have like four hundred and change to choose from. Most are really small niche projects that probably aren't what you're looking for. There's certainly no conspiracy to keep you from using a KDE-oriented distribution.

In fact, these days I don't use GNU/Linux at all, since several things I use aren't supported:...

You're preaching to the choir. We all would like to see those seemingly irreplaceable Windows apps become available on Linux and other free software platforms, but nobody here at OSNews or over at the Ubuntu project can help you with this. Maybe write a letter to Adobe if you think it's worth your time, because it isn't a matter of Linux not supporting Photoshop, it's Adobe not supporting Linux. Same thing with hardware. Canon could have implemented the USB mass storage standard if they cared about compatibility, or they could have been more forthcoming as to why our reverse-engineered PTP driver in gphoto2 works with my PowerShot but not with your EOS.

Asking me to get off my a$$ and code drivers for this baby is what I consider elitist and a very unreasonable demand on the end user. It's one thing that gives GNU/Linux zealots a very bad name in the real world.

I have sneaking suspicion that you get this response from the Linux community because we feel you're placing unreasonable demands on us. Your points are valid, but your energy is misdirected. Unfortunately for those who don't like to code, that's how software is created and improved. We invite you to participate in our projects in a variety of capacities including but not limited to programming, but of course participation is not required.

I think that Linux "zealots" get a bad name because much of the "real world" believes in a culture of entitlement. Look at everybody living life with a chip on their shoulder, blaming everyone else for their problems and scoffing at the notion that they take responsibility for their own situation. Somewhere along the line we stopped believing in opportunity as a means of realizing our dreams and began to foster the idea that we're entitled to our expectations. In "Linux land," we believe that the opportunity to participate in our information society is fundamental to our inherent desire as human beings to better our situation and control our own destiny.

Of course, money can make just about any dream come true. Mark Shuttleworth, for exmaple, invested $10 million to help make the Ubuntu project a reality. But years ago my great-grandmother told me the story of how my family came to America with nothing but the promise that here they would find a land of opportunity. This is the same promise we make with free software. This isn't elitist, this is egalitarian.

Edited 2007-03-17 05:34

Reply Parent Score: 5

lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

{In fact, these days I don't use GNU/Linux at all, since several things I use aren't supported:

1. Photoshop CS2 (WINE/Cedega/CrossOver Office do not support it, not even with nasty hacks)
2. Neat Image (full of bugs under WINE, haven't tried Cedega/CrossOver office)
3. Capture One Pro (WINE says v3.6, although it has bugs, not sure on v3.7)
}

What a strange person.

Those three points are no fault of Ubuntu nor Linux, but rather are the fault of the OEM software vendors (Adobe, Nik Software et al) for not writing a Linux version.

Windows can't run Linux binary software packages at all, BTW, so why would you expect Linux to be able run all Windows binaries?

The fact that WINE/Cedega/CrossOver Office suppaort any Windows binaries at all is the remarkable thing.

If you want even better support for running Windows binaries under Linux, then try this:

http://www.win4lin.com/index.php/content/view/64/125/

... or you can go the full way and use vmware or virtualbox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) virtualization software.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Doc Pain Member since:
2006-10-08

"Until Ubuntu decides to support KDE properly, I won't use it, nor will I recommend it. "

I think it's possible to install KDE afterwards and switch to it then. Can someone confirm?

"In fact, these days I don't use GNU/Linux at all, since several things I use aren't supported:

1. Photoshop CS2 (WINE/Cedega/CrossOver Office do not support it, not even with nasty hacks)
2. Neat Image (full of bugs under WINE, haven't tried Cedega/CrossOver office)
3. Capture One Pro (WINE says v3.6, although it has bugs, not sure on v3.7)"


As it has mentioned before, just write a letter to the vendors of these software products. Tell them you paid some money to them, but their programs do not work in Linux properly.

To get serious again: Software support is not a lack of Linux or Wine. It's the fault of the software vendors. For Linux, specifications, APIs and frameworks are well documented, the libraries and the compilers are free (due to the GPL), so why do they refuse to use them in order to make a great product working on Linux?

BTW, I'm a photographic enthusiast myself and I never found any reason to use one of the products you mentioned. There are very capable alternatives available, just try them and see how you can work with them. Remember, even the Gimp's interface has improved and is ready for Joe Q. Sixpack.

"4. Canon EOS 1D DSLR - gphoto2 doesn't support this *major* pro camera whatsoever. Disappointing."

I agree, that's a real problem. But it's Canon's problem. There are standard specifications that Canon could have used, but they simply didn't, because they don't care. So, if your EOS had a standard USB mass storage system, a /dev/da?s1 file would be available to be mounted via the -t msdos command. No problem! There are other free standards that could have been used. But if Canon decides to be proprietary, I won't buy this product.

A simple workaround could be to eject the storage media from the camera and put it into a drive (internal or attached via USB). So access to the files would be possible.

I for myself own a Canon EOS-50 (without D) because digital SLR's quality is not worth the money at the moment. Letting a photo CD being made is possible as well, and is enough for my needs at the moment.

"Asking me to get off my a$$ and code drivers for this baby is what I consider elitist and a very unreasonable demand on the end user."

Inform developers that are able to. How does someone who you would call "elitist" to write a driver for your camera? He even would not use it, so why should he do such work?

It would be better to inform Canon itself that you want to use their great camera with Linux, but you can't because they don't support it. So you won't buy or recommend their products...

The easiest alternative: Hardware vendors and software vendors, use existing standards or publish new ones to the public!

"It's one thing that gives GNU/Linux zealots a very bad name in the real world."

Per definition, zealots have a bad name, if they defend Linux or MICROS~1 or whatever. I won't worry. Nobody cares about them.

Reply Parent Score: 2

melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

Quote: "I think it's possible to install KDE afterwards and switch to it then. Can someone confirm?
"

Oh, it is. The thing is that most people will simply stick with the default desktop environment - Gnome. What Ubuntu has done is nothing more than favouritism. I also don't agree with distributions like Mepis shipping with KDE. I think these types of distributions do a disservice to GNU/Linux by not offering both major desktop environments and letting the user choose.

Quote: "As it has mentioned before, just write a letter to the vendors of these software products. Tell them you paid some money to them, but their programs do not work in Linux properly."

Already tried this, I'm sorry, but 2% of the population isn't a big enough warcry for these corporations to hear us. They're responsible to their shareholders to maintain and increase profits, spending money developing software that only a very small percentage will use is not financially viable in their eyes I suspect. I wish it was different, but alas...

Quote: "BTW, I'm a photographic enthusiast myself and I never found any reason to use one of the products you mentioned. There are very capable alternatives available, just try them and see how you can work with them. Remember, even the Gimp's interface has improved and is ready for Joe Q. Sixpack."

I guess it really depends on what you want to do. Since you're shooting film, something like Capture One Pro wouldn't be much good to you (since it's used to process RAW files). Same with DPP. Neat Image and Photoshop could be used by film shooters of course.

Quote: "There are standard specifications that Canon could have used, but they simply didn't, because they don't care."

Please do your homework first. Canon's 1D uses FireWire - that's the ieee1394 *standard*. They chose that at the time, because USB 2 wasn't ratified by the ISO. There's an official Canon interview somewhere that explains it.

Quote: "But if Canon decides to be proprietary, I won't buy this product."

Unfortunately, competitor's products do not meet my photographical needs. They come first.

Quote: "Inform developers that are able to. How does someone who you would call "elitist" to write a driver for your camera? He even would not use it, so why should he do such work?"

That is indeed true. But, given that, then I'm quite free to bag the gphoto project for not supporting a *major* camera. Sure, they don't have to, but I don't have to say that their project is any good either, based on my needs/requirements. Sure, I could use a memory card reader, but the point is that I *shouldn't have to*.

Quote: "I for myself own a Canon EOS-50 (without D) because digital SLR's quality is not worth the money at the moment. Letting a photo CD being made is possible as well, and is enough for my needs at the moment."

I beg to differ. Digital has surpassed film in critical areas now in all honesty. And I've shot film for near 20 years. I was very late to convert to digital, in fact I bought my first digital SLR in January 2006. The new 1D Mark III has noise at ISO 3200 that is probably better than film grain at ISO 800. That is a MASSIVE improvement. Even my 5 year old 1D has better noise than the eqivalent film speed, and the 1D is reknowned for being very noisy.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 1