Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 21st Jun 2007 22:14 UTC
KDE "If you visited the Plasma project's outdated Web site in past weeks, you might have gotten the impression that the team behind the project to revitalize the KDE desktop hasn't been up to much these past months. Delve into KDE's SVN repository, mailing lists, or the mind of lead developer Aaron Seigo, however, and you'll find a more exciting story." More here.
Thread beginning with comment 249715
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE
by Kroc on Thu 21st Jun 2007 23:01 UTC in reply to "RE"
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

I've been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years), do you want to place bets, because I'm pretty assured of my statement? I'm very much in the opinion that icons-on-icons is starting off on the wrong foot. No amount of improvement and tweaking can fix what is IMO a fundamental design mistake - layering click targets. Imagine if your browser back button went all the way back to the first entered page if you clicked the left half; and only back once if you clicked the right half. No amount of polish would fix a turd like that.

Edited 2007-06-21 23:07

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE
by FooBarWidget on Thu 21st Jun 2007 23:05 in reply to "RE"
FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

If you've been into computers that long then your view on user interfaces is already distorted and you're not qualified to comment on what's good for the "average" user.

So you've been helping average users for years. Big deal. That doesn't make you an expert on user interfaces. Real user interface design is done by testing on users, and more testing on users, not by boasting on the Internet about how great you are and how others suck and that you must be right.

Edited 2007-06-21 23:08

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE
by Kroc on Thu 21st Jun 2007 23:10 in reply to "RE"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Right, so personally watching and helping regular users in the use of their computer for years doesn't qualify? You need people who are very well trained in interpreting the actions users take, and that takes experience, and years of talking to users - and not treating them like they're the problem.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE
by elsewhere on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 04:05 in reply to "RE"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

I've been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years), do you want to place bets, because I'm pretty assured of my statement?


Dude, if that's the case, then I've been fixing, playing with and generally poking around with computers since you were just out of diapers.

I remember when the Osborne came out, self-proclaimed experts had no end of arguments about why portable computers would never be successful. I remember when the IBM PC came out, self-proclaimed experts claimed it would never overtake the Apple ][ because of it's price and lack of software. I remember when the Apple Lisa came out, self-proclaimed experts dismissed graphical-computing as an expensive and inefficient toy. I remember when the Mac came out, self-proclaimed experts claimed it would make the DOS PC obsolete. I remember when Windows was released, self-proclaimed experts dismissed it as being too late and that other maufacturers dominated graphical computing. I remember when Office hit Windows and self-proclaimed experts decided that it was inferior to WordPerfect and would never gain traction. I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed that the "web" would never be widely accepted because of it crudity and complexity. I remember when self-proclaimed experts laughed at the though of Microsoft ever displacing Novell or Unix companies in the datacenter. I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed Microsoft would not be able to withstand the momentum of Netscape. I remember when self-proclaimed experts emphatically discounted the possibility of linux becoming anything more than hobbyist project. I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed OS X would supplant Windows as the dominant desktop platform. I remember when self-proclaimed experts even denied rumours that Apple would ever produce a digital music player.

In short, I've learned that any time somebody proclaims expertise in the technology field, their opinion is in question. Give yourself another decade, and you'll understand what I mean. Change happens before you know it.

Who knows? Maybe you're right. But if developers stopped and said, "Aw, shucks" everytime somebody questioned their intent, we'd probably still be flipping toggle switches and counting flashing lights every time we wanted to run a program. I betcha that self-proclaimed experts at one time claimed that punch cards would never be as effective as toggle switches and patch cables for inputing information. ;)

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE doh
by hyperdaz on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 12:22 in reply to "RE"
hyperdaz Member since:
2007-06-05

----I've been fixing computers since I was 16 (years)----

7 years is not so long you cant remember the first release of windows 95.... 13 floppy disks... disk one was formatted at 1.77 as a copy protection...

shucks windows 2000 and ME were probably already released before you started...

redhat 6 was munching through the office years before... hmmm running linux on psion 5 was the in thing... and the thinkpad 380ed was sweet for linux....

kde had been around for four years before you picked up the keyboard... or x86 cpu...

I am not saying your thoughts are invalid just remember your coming to the party late ((by a few decades)) and there will be a hell of a lot of people that know a heck more then you or I....

kde3.5.x has been mega sweet... and put it this way if they do mess up they know someone will come along and just fork kde's development...

there's nothing like pressure ;)

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE
by makc on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 17:21 in reply to "RE"
makc Member since:
2006-01-11

I remember when self-proclaimed experts claimed OS X would supplant Windows as the dominant desktop platform.

I've never seen as many Macs around than lately actually ;) But about dominant, right.

Still, Kroc's points are good. Too bad about the last one.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE
by systyrant on Sat 23rd Jun 2007 03:44 in reply to "RE"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

I remember when experts said we'd all be running a single processor at 10Ghz by now and dual processors would soon be a thing of the past. Well, local experts anyway. Most of the "experts" I know are short sighted idiots.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE
by Lokken on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 10:50 in reply to "RE"
Lokken Member since:
2006-06-27

Fixing computers since you were 16?

I thought it was well known that trying to boast about your credentials/experience on the internet doesn't really serve much purpose unless you can back them up with something (like, for example, Bill Gates can say that he's really rich, because everyone knows, or has a way to know).

7 years isn't really that long. And most people realize that by the time they're 23.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE
by ecko on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 13:22 in reply to "RE"
ecko Member since:
2005-07-08

@Kroc

So removing spyware makes you a UI design expert? As a guy who actually rights software and has to deal with human computer interaction I'm going to say it's _nowhere_ near a fundamental design flaw.

Your browser analogy is completely flawed. Icons keep getting bigger and bigger, mostly for aesthetic reasons. People have huge displays and hate tiny little icons. This trend is going to continue. Why not take advantage of those extra pixels those icons are using.

Please stay with fixing computers and leave HCI to people who actually know what they're doing and who's opinions actually matter.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE
by Moochman on Sat 23rd Jun 2007 09:04 in reply to "RE"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Your argument makes no sense. You argue against tiny icons, but then argue for adding tiny icons to each big icon.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE
by Soulbender on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 13:47 in reply to "RE"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I've been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years)"

I've been driving a car since I was 18 (18 years) but that doesn't make me a car designer.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE
by arooaroo on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 16:29 in reply to "RE"
arooaroo Member since:
2005-07-06

To be fair, I think you're deliberately taking him out of context. I'm not sure he's trying to convince the world he's a HCI expert per se, simply being a long-term user does give a certain amount of weight from a users' point of view.

So after your 18 years of driving, despite not being a car designer, what you should be able to judge is a well designed car vs. a badly designed car, right?

It keeps being mentioned that only by observing users do researchers understand what is good for UI and what is bad. I don't see how Kroc's feedback is any less valid for speaking his mind now instead of being explicitly invited for comment.

I'm not saying I agree with him, but I don't understand why he's being shot down for a pretty reasonable assessment.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE
by polaris20 on Fri 22nd Jun 2007 18:29 in reply to "RE"
polaris20 Member since:
2005-07-06

I've been fixing computers since I was 16 (7 years)

That makes you an expert in GUI design? I've been fixing computers for about 17 years, and I've been officially paid for network administration and end user support for about 7.....I guess that would make me a certified GUI genius!

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE
by BluenoseJake on Sun 24th Jun 2007 18:01 in reply to "RE"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

well, like I said, anybody can play that game. I've been working with computers since I bought a VIC 20 in 1983, when I was 11, so I know much more about interface design than you, so you're wrong!

You may be right, you might be wrong, but I don't think you deserve the right to denigrate the entire projects experience and skills. The icons on icons truly may suck, but at least they are trying new things, different directions, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, as the whole thing is still in development.

Reply Parent Score: 2