Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 6th Jul 2007 19:50 UTC, submitted by juno_106
Opera Software "Back in January we added the ability to report usage of different features and preferences so we could learn more about how the browser is used in general. First we invited you, our weekly users to help us and in 9.2 we started asking one in 100 users if they want to participate. We would like to share some of our findings with you."
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RE: Some interesting revelations
by Kroc on Fri 6th Jul 2007 23:43 UTC in reply to "Some interesting revelations"
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

Excuse me? F--k me did you say? There's a reason I opt-in to Javascript.

* Intellitext. Ruining the whole concept of hyperlinks
* Slide in DHTML ads that cover the content.
* A million flash objects loading into the page locking your machine up
* Popups that manage to now and again get around the popup blocker

It's web developers who should not be wasting my time with their obtrusive natty scripts. I remember the web before Javascript. It was pretty good for the time.

Website designers who cannot create a site that can gracefully degrade, are just bad programmers, enough said. As well as techites like me, there's also disabled persons who may be browsing the web with browsers that either do not support javascript, or have limited support - and it's against the law to prevent them suitable access to e-commerce sites.

Reply Parent Score: 5

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Website designers who cannot create a site that can gracefully degrade, are just bad programmers, enough said.

Or the very small percentage of people that don't have JS enable are not worth the extra resources it might take to work around lack of javascript. Some things are not so easy to degrace gracefully. Trust me, I have to deal with that at work.

Reply Parent Score: 5

Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Did I not point out that a few of those users, are lawfully required access to certain websites. In the UK there is a 20'000 fine for failure to provide adequate disabled access, this includes e-commerce websites. Read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3117050.stm

I manage fine supporting disabled users with almost no extra effort. Writing correct HTML, CSS and Javascript via event binding is not rocket science, you just can't be a lazy sod that thinks disabled people don't exist and will go away if you don't cater for them.

Reply Parent Score: 5

CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

This is one of the reasons I love Opera. I disable features such as cookies, plugins, and javascript by default, and add the features back on a need and trust basis using the "Edit site preferences" option on the right-click menu. Not only does that make the browser snappier, but one can avoid all of those annoyances in your list. Also, I'll have to say it's surprisingly rare that I actually need to use that menu.

PS. Can't wait for Kestrel! ;)

Reply Parent Score: 2

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""
Website designers who cannot create a site that can gracefully degrade, are just bad programmers, enough said.
"""

To put it bluntly, that's just stupid. Increasing the complexity of a program by doing everything 2 ways, first the convoluted way for people who refuse to use modern technology, and then the simpler and cleaner way using the capabilities of the browser that 99% of people have turned on (according to the article) and leaving both code paths in is *not* good programming practice. (Unless you get paid by the hour, of course.)

If it means that assistive technologies need to get smarter and deal with the fact that browsers are smart clients and not dumb terminals then so be it.

P.S. I would hardly call the programmers behind Google Docs and Spreadsheets "bad programmers".

Edited 2007-07-07 01:13

Reply Parent Score: 5

Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Javascript is not a secure and reliable solution for form validation. Validation has to be done server side as well before going into the DB. Therefore accepting a form only by javascript is dumb, when you can fall back to the action attribute on the Form to submit the same data through post and validate with the same code.

It is not increasing the complexity of everything by two, that's a total over exaggeration. I manage absolutely fine with a well written validation class that can accept both methods equally.

And people still don't understand. 99% of people may have Javascript on, but those disabled people who don't - have to have access by law. Can I say that again, as this is the third time someone has failed to realise that. It's the law. Not supporting graceful degrading (something that's been possible since 1996), is not worth 20'000 to me, comprende?

Edited 2007-07-07 01:18

Reply Parent Score: 5

Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Google Docs and Spreadsheets is a very good point ;)
There's no reason an e-commerce site cannot be accessible to disabled people. However, Google Docs and Spreadsheets have to dynamically update content in cells and perform live calculations. This can't be done without Javascript.

That's not to say that degrading gracefully on e-commerce sites is irrelevant, but that web2.0 apps that try to mimick their counterparts are struck by the limitations of using barely appropriate languages and technologies to create something that looks like a spreadsheet when a real Excel spreadsheet would be accessible to disabled persons through the OS support (like Windows Narrator).

It's going to take a looong time (especially with IE trailing behind), but eventually these web apps will be accessible through improved accessibility hooks in browsers, and new Javascript standards.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Liquidator Member since:
2007-03-04

Now this is ridiculous. If you ban Javascript, you left the webapps bandwagon. 99% of web applications these days use Ajax (javascript), here's what you can't use: Gmail (fast version), Google Docs, Zimbra, Yahoo!Mail (Beta version), and the fast-increasing number of web sites that use Ajax. At one point there will be so many web sites that will be broken on your computer that you may end up giving up. Javascript is basically Ecmascript, which is a web standard (http://www.w3.org/DOM/).

This remembers geeks in the 90's who said they would ban CSS because it didn't add to the web. They all use CSS these days and they don't complain anymore. If the owners of the web sites you visit use Javascript to display ads, they probably have good reasons, they need to make money. You also probably whine at TV commercial like I do, but we end up watching TV (well I don't very often!). If bloggers couldn't place ads with Javascript, they would use plain XHTML coding and it would be no better for you. And to go back to web applications, if there wasn't Javascript, web applications would turn server applications, where everything is run on the server. These days, half of the cde of webapps are run on the client desktop and with Ajax they are less sluggish than they used to be. You should be thankful.

Edited 2007-07-07 09:59

Reply Parent Score: 5