Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 23rd Jul 2007 21:20 UTC, submitted by Innova
Gentoo "Over the past few days, I discovered that the Gentoo Foundation's charter is in the process of being revoked by the state of New Mexico, apparently due to regular paperwork not being filed by the trustees. What this means is that the Gentoo Foundation is currently hanging for its life by a string, and at any day could cease to exist as an entity. That is the very bad news. The good news is that I was able to talk to Grant Goodyear (trustee) this morning on the phone, and I have confirmed that Grant had received my email about the revocation issue that I sent 2 days ago and that he will be resolving this critical issue in the next couple of days by filing the appropriate paperwork with the state of New Mexico, and this paperwork will also remove me as President of the Foundation."
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RE[3]: I hope things work out
by wirespot on Tue 24th Jul 2007 09:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I hope things work out"
wirespot
Member since:
2006-06-21

It's not for everyone's taste, but it is an utterly unique approach with its own strengths (and weaknesses) and it remains Gentoo's strongest selling-point.


And the only one. And once interest in that starts vaning it brings down the whole thing.

"Fad" implies no intrinsic benefit once the novelty factor has worn off, which (as you may have guessed) I'd strongly refute.


Let's face it, Gentoo = Portage. OK, it was fun for a while, I guess it made some people get closer to their Linux and some feel more in control and placebo'ed some into feeling they get a "faster" and more "stable" install in return.

And since none of the above is particularly well anchored in reality, yeah, I'd say there's "no intrinsic benefit once the novelty has worn off".

Look, I'm not particularly trying to bash Gentoo. There are serious objections to Gentoo being fit to survive in the Linux distro world. Gentoo fans can (a) change Gentoo to improve its fighting chances, or (b) let it go. I say it again: the FOSS world is a very harsh one. It's survival of the fittest, and Gentoo got the terminal pox. People should grow up and learn to live with it, shit happens, distro's die, it's a fact of life.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: I hope things work out
by WereCatf on Tue 24th Jul 2007 09:50 in reply to "RE[3]: I hope things work out"
WereCatf Member since:
2006-02-15

Let's face it, Gentoo = Portage. OK, it was fun for a while, I guess it made some people get closer to their Linux and some feel more in control and placebo'ed some into feeling they get a "faster" and more "stable" install in return.

And since none of the above is particularly well anchored in reality, yeah, I'd say there's "no intrinsic benefit once the novelty has worn off".


Ahem. Could you please explain how "feel more in control" is not "particularly well anchored in reality"? Cos you know very well that is BS. You _are_ in control; _you_ decide what you want your system to have and what not, you decide how everything is compiled and so on. You can't do that with f.ex. Ubuntu (or okay, you _can_ but only if you tear it down completely and start compiling the stuff yourself, but then you miss the whole point of using it..)

And well, the compilation flags do have some meaning, actually. If you select the wrong ones, you do get an unstable system. If you use -O2, you do get a tad faster apps. Though, the performance boost is really very very negligible, nothing to call home about. But as I use -Os, I get stable apps and they're smaller in size. On my jukebox with low memory I find this pretty useful. I did just compare /usr/bin/nautilus compiled with -O2 to the same compiled with -Os and the difference is 300kB. Considering how big of a difference it is on a single file it must have quite an impact on the system as a whole. On a system with low memory that is very handy.

EDIT: fixed typo

Edited 2007-07-24 09:52

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: I hope things work out
by wirespot on Tue 24th Jul 2007 17:06 in reply to "RE[4]: I hope things work out"
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

Could you please explain how "feel more in control" is not "particularly well anchored in reality"?


Simple. You are not in control. All that most of Gentoo users are doing is monkeying around and getting a false feeling of control.

Half of all they do is use emerge. That's not different from any other decent package management system, feature-wise, except with Portage you have to wait hours sometimes for stuff to compile. But I digress. The point is, there's no particular control in simply using a packaging system, no more or less than on other distro's.

The other half of the grand illusion consists of mucking about with compile flags. I doubt a lot of people could seriously sit down and explain what -O does. I mean, really does, not "it makes the programs more stable/fast". And when the compilation is done they sit back and say "yeah, I can tell it's faster/more stable". Please. Give me proof or stop saying that.

So if there's any BS flying around it's pretending that compiling everything from source yields any significant result. The only sure thing is that you're torturing the poor machines for nothing. OK, emerge as a packaging system has it's management merits, but so do other ones. Too bad it is badly crippled by the whole compilation thing.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: I hope things work out
by b00gie on Tue 24th Jul 2007 10:12 in reply to "RE[3]: I hope things work out"
b00gie Member since:
2006-06-09

Let's face it, Gentoo = Portage. OK, it was fun for a while, I guess it made some people get closer to their Linux and some feel more in control and placebo'ed some into feeling they get a "faster" and more "stable" install in return.


Can you explain to us why is it a fake feeling that you get far more control and speed tuning with gentoo?

When we are talking about a source based distro (not just gentoo) i think it's a fact that you get an advantage on how you control your system...

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: I hope things work out
by cyclops on Tue 24th Jul 2007 15:24 in reply to "RE[4]: I hope things work out"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

"Can you explain to us why is it a fake feeling that you get far more control and speed tuning with gentoo?

When we are talking about a source based distro (not just gentoo) i think it's a fact that you get an advantage on how you control your system..."

"fake feeling" could you explain that statement.

You can optimize compiling of programs to take advantage of *your* CPU, and lots do the *simple * fact you can do it is part of the control. You can argue the benefits of having an often marginally faster system at the expense of stability in everything *but* gaming is a waste of time...and I'd agree, but then I run my hardware at stock speeds...but understand why someone would overclock their hardware.

If you do not understand the statements "your GNU your way" or "Everything you want *and* nothing you don't" or "mininimal install with not application bloat" then I can't help you the reality is there are 100's of distributions catering to *different* needs. In simply terms my setup is Linux+X+Xfce+OpenOffice+Firefox+K3B+Xchat+Eclipse etc etc and *nothing* I don't use at the *high* cost of compiling, Even the programs themselves only compile without things I consider useless like support for formats;desktops;libraries I don't use, like Gnome+KDE+GTk1+Microsoft Codecs+Allegro. But your *right* if Distribution+Binary Package Manager fulfills most of *your* needs without the additional overhead of the time involved in compiling then that is a compelling alternative.

Although you are trolling and you are off topic, but then judging by your post. I think you have heard of Gentoo, but haven't used it and are playing Distro smackdown. Gentoo is not *primarily* about speed or control although it offers *both* more than all but the base metal Distributions. Its *mainly* about a *meta-distribution*+*cutting-edge*+*stability*+*maintainability*
...but you clearly do not understand that. In fact the fact that it offers these *together* is what makes Gentoo+portage unique

I will go *further* you do not understand *why GNU has many choices of Distribution* which is unfortunate for new GNU users who are overwhelmed by the choices out there.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: I hope things work out
by Havin_it on Tue 24th Jul 2007 14:08 in reply to "RE[3]: I hope things work out"
Havin_it Member since:
2006-03-10

Heh, sorry if I came across as flaming. That's usually what a para-by-para response means around here, but actually I just thought your post was a good canvas on which to express my own thoughts on the matter.

You're quite right (and I hinted at this previously): if Portage does not seem like an appealing proposition, Gentoo itself won't either (although maybe Sabayon's popularity refutes this in a way).

Like it or not, Portage defines Gentoo. But what I'm getting at is that many people (I believe the majority) chose Gentoo expressly because of what Portage offers, and I'm not talking about speed or stability because, as you said, these are shaky arguments at best (which is why the Gentoo team disavow these points every chance they get; they don't want people on board due to hype/misconceptions, because those people will probably leave as soon as reality bites).

The advantages and disadvantages of Portage are likely to be understood by most prospective users long before they fire up the install. I've already made a couple of examples of why it appealed to me, here's another: obsessively minute control. Most distros package KDE, for example, with colossal amounts of cruft and stuff that people simply won't use. Thanks to Portage, I never needed to trouble myself with any of that stuff. Even Konqueror and the Control Centre are opt-in components (I guess some people might be able to live without them...)

Anyway, sorry to have come across poorly, but my position stands: There will always be people who love to use Gentoo, and others who are dedicated to making it work, because of its uniqueness. Fair-weather friends, Johnny-come-latelys and "sheeple" have never been a big factor in the community's makeup, and it certainly will not stand/fall on their whims.

Reply Parent Score: 5