Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 9th Oct 2007 16:10 UTC, submitted by elsewhere
Novell and Ximian "Novell's long journey from NetWare to Linux is finally complete. On Oct. 8, Novell released Open Enterprise Server 2 to its customers worldwide. Shortly after acquiring SUSE and its enterprise-focused Linux distribution, Novell announced that its follow-on to NetWare 6.5 would ship as a set of network services that could run atop the NetWare and the Linux kernel, OES 1.0. OES, which began shipping in April 2005, was the first major step in Novell moving NetWare's services from its native operating system to Linux. Now, with OES 2.0, the NetWare operating system kernel, NetWare 6.5 SP7, is still there if you run it, but it runs on top of the Xen hypervisor. You can also run the NetWare services, or a para-virtualized instance of NetWare, on top of Xen with the SLES 10 SP 1 kernel. So, if you're wedded to NetWare and its way of doing things, you don't have to wave good-bye to it."
Thread beginning with comment 277467
To view parent comment, click here.
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
RE[4]: Goodbye Novell
by segedunum on Wed 10th Oct 2007 14:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Goodbye Novell"
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'll agree that they lag behind Microsoft in this regard.

They log a long way behind, and there's no reason they should because moving to Linux should have given them what they needed.

There is no bare metal 64-bit version currently, nor will there be ever.

Basically, Novell couldn't afford to maintain it or keep up with the hardware world. We all understand that.

The same goes for drivers. Everything I've been lead to believe, it's a huge undertaking involving a heavy rewrite of the OS for little or no benefit over running those same services on the Linux kernel.

That's exactly what they needed to do if they wanted their customers to go with them. Not everything is going to work, and the concept of NLMs would have to go the journey, but everything else needed to fit and Novell needed to get everyone so excited about it that they would want to go along. That's also what I'm hinting at when I talk about graphical tools.

In terms of pure performance and feature set, you have to take the two products out of the politics and put them head to head.

Same difference. Windows Server has been eating share at the expense of Netware for years, and in terms of features Novell needed to arrest it. They havent.

It will be one product.

It isn't though, and it shouldn't have been until they released it.

The issue is, you can't just up and do away with NetWare in one movement. You have to continue to support it and provide a migration path.

That's Novell's problem, and they've done it very badly. In fact, they don't have any kind of adequate migration path. Mostly, it's left up to customers all in the name of choice. People don't want that - they want a network operating system and they want Novell to tell them what they are selling.

This is a phasing out process and OES2 is just next step of that process.

Phasing out shouldn't be necessary. At the moment, many people are caught in limbo between one and the other. Virtualisation provides Netware with something of a future for people who need all of it, but OES should have been released with all the tools necessary for people to migrate from Netware to Linux and have it be a drop-in replacement. Many jumped ship when that didn't happen.

Moreover, OES2 has been turned into an add on package to SLES10 rather than a separate operating system for lack of a better descriptor.

That's good, yes, but the two are named completely differently, and really, there should still just be one product.

To sum it all up, my main point is that NetWare is a dead end in terms of development and Linux is the best option as a successor.

I think everyone can understand that, but Novell's customers don't care and simply want a network operating system to do what Netware did with quite a bit extra. Frankly, Novell have failed to provide it.

Open sourcing NetWare would be a very time consuming and expensive process.

I'm not saying they should open source all of it - just the parts that they can get up and running on Linux.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Goodbye Novell
by IanSVT on Wed 10th Oct 2007 19:39 in reply to "RE[4]: Goodbye Novell"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

Phasing out shouldn't be necessary. At the moment, many people are caught in limbo between one and the other. Virtualisation provides Netware with something of a future for people who need all of it, but OES should have been released with all the tools necessary for people to migrate from Netware to Linux and have it be a drop-in replacement. Many jumped ship when that didn't happen.


How many jumped ship because of that and who? Novell's entire reason for running 2 kernels parallel with similar feature sets was because the customers wanted it. You can't rip and replace like that. If you really want to drive customers away, then having OES services sitting on the NetWare kernel only one version and then eliminating that and going with the Linux kernel only on the next version would basically kill your File/Print business. Migrations paths are not supposed to be static rip and replace scenarios that are equal across the board. They need to provide as many options as possible for the varying situations one customer might have compared to the next. To do so is ignoring your customers and what they might want.

That's good, yes, but the two are named completely differently, and really, there should still just be one product.


That's just the point, they are not one product. OES proprietary services sit on top of SLES, but it provides radically different services than basic SLES. Not everyone needs those services. Otherwise you're basically using the analogy that Exchange 2007 should come with Windows Server 2003 because it direct extends the server and the directory.

I think everyone can understand that, but Novell's customers don't care and simply want a network operating system to do what Netware did with quite a bit extra. Frankly, Novell have failed to provide it.


Have you used OES2 yet? Have you thoroughly tested it to make that conclusion? I don't know about you, but have a load of NetWare servers 30 feet away from me right now. I want to be able to run the OES services on new hardware which is becoming more and more difficult on the NetWare path. I also can't go in to my server room and rip and replace all my NetWare servers with OES2 Linux boxes. My next(as in time) best option moving foward seems to be OES2 Linux at this point. Although to be fair, I have not tested it myself, so my opinion on what the next best option is based on what I have read, what I have heard from people who have gotten their hands on it already, and the realities of supported hardware with NetWare.

I'm not saying they should open source all of it - just the parts that they can get up and running on Linux.


Why? I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I'm just curious as to what benefit would it be for them? Everything they need from NetWare has been ported to Linux already.

Edited 2007-10-10 19:44

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[6]: Goodbye Novell
by segedunum on Wed 10th Oct 2007 21:11 in reply to "RE[5]: Goodbye Novell"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

How many jumped ship because of that and who?

Well, I'm afraid you've been out of the loop. Customers do not want a choice of two kernels - they want to know what Novell is selling. Customers have been jumping ship for quite some time, hence Novell's somewhat dire financial results and a new round of layoffs apparently.

Novell's entire reason for running 2 kernels parallel with similar feature sets was because the customers wanted it.

No, they didn't. Novell went and did that of their own accord, and they thought that's what customers wanted. You have to get the meaning from what customers say, not what they actually. Rather like women! Who in their right mind thinks that customers want to choose a kernel?

You can't rip and replace like that. If you really want to drive customers away, then having OES services sitting on the NetWare kernel only one version and then eliminating that and going with the Linux kernel only on the next version would basically kill your File/Print business.

Novell are doing that fine, I'm afraid. The key here is decisiveness. Novell should have announced that they were moving away from Netware, but should have come up with a clear migration plan and tools and a clear incentive for customers to move to the new Linux offering so that it was as damn near a drop-in replacement as possible - with tons of added goodies to keep them. There's simply no reason for any Netware admin today to move to the Linux version of OES, simply because it's different, there's nothing compelling to move to it for (other than Novell can't keep up with hardware support for Netware, which is not a customer's problem) and it's simply a Linux version of something that does what Netware does, except arguably worse in his eyes with nothing extra. Many organisations are simply moving to Windows servers completely to manage their networks.

That's just the point, they are not one product. OES proprietary services sit on top of SLES...

They are one product, and they should both have the same name. It's an OS. Why is the OES stuff proprietary anyway? I thought Novell was an open source company (which causes yet more confusion for people)?

Otherwise you're basically using the analogy that Exchange 2007 should come with Windows Server 2003...

Errrr, no, because one's a mail server and one's an OS.

Have you used OES2 yet? Have you thoroughly tested it to make that conclusion?

We have one big Netware using client, and they've already been making the shift to Windows servers to replace what Netware is doing. Once Netware support goes completely, apart from when it is being run in a VM, then so will Netware - and they won't be moving to OES Linux. It's just too much hassle, and there is little incentive to do it.

I want to be able to run the OES services on new hardware which is becoming more and more difficult on the NetWare path.

You need an awful lot more incentive than the ability to run Netware services on new hardware if you're going to move to something new. If you're moving to new hardware then you might as well just move to Windows, or Red Hat, and that's the view many companies are taking.

I also can't go in to my server room and rip and replace all my NetWare servers with OES2 Linux boxes.

That's about the size of it. That's exactly what Novell should be helping you to do - as painlessly as possible, with lots of goodies to make the whole process worthwhile.

Why? I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I'm just curious as to what benefit would it be for them?

That sounds just like Novell themselves. The open source company.........that isn't. Because they need to prolong the life of their OS and their services in another operating system, that operating system is open source, and one of the benefits of Novell using Linux and open source software is shared development and Netware services usage increasing.

Reply Parent Score: 2