Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 9th Oct 2007 16:10 UTC, submitted by elsewhere
Novell and Ximian "Novell's long journey from NetWare to Linux is finally complete. On Oct. 8, Novell released Open Enterprise Server 2 to its customers worldwide. Shortly after acquiring SUSE and its enterprise-focused Linux distribution, Novell announced that its follow-on to NetWare 6.5 would ship as a set of network services that could run atop the NetWare and the Linux kernel, OES 1.0. OES, which began shipping in April 2005, was the first major step in Novell moving NetWare's services from its native operating system to Linux. Now, with OES 2.0, the NetWare operating system kernel, NetWare 6.5 SP7, is still there if you run it, but it runs on top of the Xen hypervisor. You can also run the NetWare services, or a para-virtualized instance of NetWare, on top of Xen with the SLES 10 SP 1 kernel. So, if you're wedded to NetWare and its way of doing things, you don't have to wave good-bye to it."
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RE[5]: Goodbye Novell
by IanSVT on Wed 10th Oct 2007 19:39 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Goodbye Novell"
IanSVT
Member since:
2005-07-06

Phasing out shouldn't be necessary. At the moment, many people are caught in limbo between one and the other. Virtualisation provides Netware with something of a future for people who need all of it, but OES should have been released with all the tools necessary for people to migrate from Netware to Linux and have it be a drop-in replacement. Many jumped ship when that didn't happen.


How many jumped ship because of that and who? Novell's entire reason for running 2 kernels parallel with similar feature sets was because the customers wanted it. You can't rip and replace like that. If you really want to drive customers away, then having OES services sitting on the NetWare kernel only one version and then eliminating that and going with the Linux kernel only on the next version would basically kill your File/Print business. Migrations paths are not supposed to be static rip and replace scenarios that are equal across the board. They need to provide as many options as possible for the varying situations one customer might have compared to the next. To do so is ignoring your customers and what they might want.

That's good, yes, but the two are named completely differently, and really, there should still just be one product.


That's just the point, they are not one product. OES proprietary services sit on top of SLES, but it provides radically different services than basic SLES. Not everyone needs those services. Otherwise you're basically using the analogy that Exchange 2007 should come with Windows Server 2003 because it direct extends the server and the directory.

I think everyone can understand that, but Novell's customers don't care and simply want a network operating system to do what Netware did with quite a bit extra. Frankly, Novell have failed to provide it.


Have you used OES2 yet? Have you thoroughly tested it to make that conclusion? I don't know about you, but have a load of NetWare servers 30 feet away from me right now. I want to be able to run the OES services on new hardware which is becoming more and more difficult on the NetWare path. I also can't go in to my server room and rip and replace all my NetWare servers with OES2 Linux boxes. My next(as in time) best option moving foward seems to be OES2 Linux at this point. Although to be fair, I have not tested it myself, so my opinion on what the next best option is based on what I have read, what I have heard from people who have gotten their hands on it already, and the realities of supported hardware with NetWare.

I'm not saying they should open source all of it - just the parts that they can get up and running on Linux.


Why? I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I'm just curious as to what benefit would it be for them? Everything they need from NetWare has been ported to Linux already.

Edited 2007-10-10 19:44

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[6]: Goodbye Novell
by segedunum on Wed 10th Oct 2007 21:11 in reply to "RE[5]: Goodbye Novell"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

How many jumped ship because of that and who?

Well, I'm afraid you've been out of the loop. Customers do not want a choice of two kernels - they want to know what Novell is selling. Customers have been jumping ship for quite some time, hence Novell's somewhat dire financial results and a new round of layoffs apparently.

Novell's entire reason for running 2 kernels parallel with similar feature sets was because the customers wanted it.

No, they didn't. Novell went and did that of their own accord, and they thought that's what customers wanted. You have to get the meaning from what customers say, not what they actually. Rather like women! Who in their right mind thinks that customers want to choose a kernel?

You can't rip and replace like that. If you really want to drive customers away, then having OES services sitting on the NetWare kernel only one version and then eliminating that and going with the Linux kernel only on the next version would basically kill your File/Print business.

Novell are doing that fine, I'm afraid. The key here is decisiveness. Novell should have announced that they were moving away from Netware, but should have come up with a clear migration plan and tools and a clear incentive for customers to move to the new Linux offering so that it was as damn near a drop-in replacement as possible - with tons of added goodies to keep them. There's simply no reason for any Netware admin today to move to the Linux version of OES, simply because it's different, there's nothing compelling to move to it for (other than Novell can't keep up with hardware support for Netware, which is not a customer's problem) and it's simply a Linux version of something that does what Netware does, except arguably worse in his eyes with nothing extra. Many organisations are simply moving to Windows servers completely to manage their networks.

That's just the point, they are not one product. OES proprietary services sit on top of SLES...

They are one product, and they should both have the same name. It's an OS. Why is the OES stuff proprietary anyway? I thought Novell was an open source company (which causes yet more confusion for people)?

Otherwise you're basically using the analogy that Exchange 2007 should come with Windows Server 2003...

Errrr, no, because one's a mail server and one's an OS.

Have you used OES2 yet? Have you thoroughly tested it to make that conclusion?

We have one big Netware using client, and they've already been making the shift to Windows servers to replace what Netware is doing. Once Netware support goes completely, apart from when it is being run in a VM, then so will Netware - and they won't be moving to OES Linux. It's just too much hassle, and there is little incentive to do it.

I want to be able to run the OES services on new hardware which is becoming more and more difficult on the NetWare path.

You need an awful lot more incentive than the ability to run Netware services on new hardware if you're going to move to something new. If you're moving to new hardware then you might as well just move to Windows, or Red Hat, and that's the view many companies are taking.

I also can't go in to my server room and rip and replace all my NetWare servers with OES2 Linux boxes.

That's about the size of it. That's exactly what Novell should be helping you to do - as painlessly as possible, with lots of goodies to make the whole process worthwhile.

Why? I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, I'm just curious as to what benefit would it be for them?

That sounds just like Novell themselves. The open source company.........that isn't. Because they need to prolong the life of their OS and their services in another operating system, that operating system is open source, and one of the benefits of Novell using Linux and open source software is shared development and Netware services usage increasing.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: Goodbye Novell
by IanSVT on Thu 11th Oct 2007 02:25 in reply to "RE[6]: Goodbye Novell"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, I'm afraid you've been out of the loop. Customers do not want a choice of two kernels - they want to know what Novell is selling. Customers have been jumping ship for quite some time, hence Novell's somewhat dire financial results and a new round of layoffs apparently.


I know Windows has been dominating NetWare market share since the late 90s before Linux was a blip on the radar, and it continues to this day. Neither your nor I really know if a dual kernel approach during a phase out of the NetWare kernel has any impact whatsoever on that outside of anecdotal evidence.

No, they didn't. Novell went and did that of their own accord, and they thought that's what customers wanted. You have to get the meaning from what customers say, not what they actually. Rather like women! Who in their right mind thinks that customers want to choose a kernel?


Well, probably the customer with an installed base of NetWare servers, who need(ed) time to plan a proper migration and get their staff properly trained. You can't get all customers on board with a new product 100%. Microsoft can't even do that with moving users off of XP onto Vista. It just isn't realistic. Some customers welcome change, some resist. You can't alienate one group. I know I want the choice to run either in our server room.

Novell are doing that fine, I'm afraid. The key here is decisiveness. Novell should have announced that they were moving away from Netware, but should have come up with a clear migration plan and tools and a clear incentive for customers to move to the new Linux offering so that it was as damn near a drop-in replacement as possible - with tons of added goodies to keep them. There's simply no reason for any Netware admin today to move to the Linux version of OES, simply because it's different, there's nothing compelling to move to it for (other than Novell can't keep up with hardware support for Netware, which is not a customer's problem) and it's simply a Linux version of something that does what Netware does, except arguably worse in his eyes with nothing extra. Many organisations are simply moving to Windows servers completely to manage their networks.


Novell customers have known since OES1 came out that NetWare's development was on the decline. It was not only an obvious scenario, Novell outright said it. You're off base on your comment about hardware support. If you want to continue to run NCP/eDirectory/NSS volumes/iPrint and so on, hardware support it very much is a customer problem in addition to Novell's. Beyond that, if a hardware vendor won't make drivers available for NetWare, what can Novell do? Moreover, third party support for Linux is far and away better than NetWare, especially in the enterprise sector. If those aren't clear reasons for a customer to move, then clearly IT isn't critical to them.

Errrr, no, because one's a mail server and one's an OS.


The mail server is a service, and the other is a series of services. eDirectory is not an OS, it's a service. iPrint is not an OS, it's a service. iFolder is not an OS, it's a service. SLES is the OS, NetWare is the OS, OES is the services coupled with the OS.


We have one big Netware using client, and they've already...


What do they use NetWare for then?


You need an awful lot more incentive than the ability to run Netware services on new hardware if you're going to move to something new. If you're moving to new hardware then you might as well just move to Windows, or Red Hat, and that's the view many companies are taking.


I don't need any more incentive than that. If you're using those services I mentioned above, then you want to have and OS that will run those services and be supported on current hardware. You can't tell me that moving to OES Linux is harder or more of a hassle than ripping up your directory services and replacing it with Active Directory, replacing your entire mail system with Exchange, moving all of your printers to a wholly different management suite. RedHat doesn't even have proper equivalents in many of these service areas. You're incorrectly trivializing the costs of these processes. Migrations from NetWare(or from any other server OS including Windows) is not driven by a "hassle" factor. It's driven by service needs. People move to Windows to run Exchange, NOT because Linux is too hard. If that's all it takes to move from NetWare, I can't honestly tell you why you(as in a customer) were even using NetWare in the first place because it couldn't have been for much.


That sounds just like Novell themselves. The open source company.........that isn't. Because they need to prolong the life of their OS and their services in another operating system, that operating system is open source, and one of the benefits of Novell using Linux and open source software is shared development and Netware services usage increasing.


I can't disagree with that. But you didn't answer the question. Where is the benefit? Are you assuming that the open sourcing of eDirectory would automatically drive development for it? If Hula was any indication, just because you open source something, doesn't mean there is any interest in it out there in the community.

To sum up, you don't seem to put much value in the services that run on OES NetWare or OES Linux and in turn seem to extrapolate that general feeling onto customers as a whole. You also discount 3rd party support and hardware support. You discount the time it takes to plan a migration, secure the funds, secure the hardware, and train your staff. You also say that Novell should rip and replace NetWare and that there is no incentive to move. Well, if you want to continue to run Novell's services, clearly OES Linux is your best choice since NetWare is going to be EOL'ed.

Reply Parent Score: 4