Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 8th Nov 2007 17:33 UTC, submitted by WillM
In the News One year after sealing their surprise alliance, Novell and Microsoft have announced an expansion of their technical collaboration to 'link together the existing Windows and Linux frameworks'. The firms will extend their existing collaboration to focus on virtualisation, standards-based management, directory and identity federation and document format compatibility. As part of this process, Microsoft said that both companies are 'now working closely' at the Microsoft and Novell Interoperability Lab in Massachusetts.
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Good for Novell!
by ssa2204 on Thu 8th Nov 2007 18:04 UTC
ssa2204
Member since:
2006-04-22

While many living in the anti-Microsoft camp will simply despise Novell more for this, fortunately I do not think Novell gives a damn about rabid 16 year old fanboys who see their OS as a religion. Novell on the other hand does have a community of businesses to which they provides services to, most of which happen to also use Windows (ours included). Mixed environments such as ours, and many of our clients, do see this as a very positive way forward. The biggest aspect is this provides Novell with a very strong competitive edge over Red Hat, the only other real player in the Linux corporate world.

I am sure if Novell starts to gain market share with Suse Enterprise, many of Red Hats shareholders are going to be none to pleased with their stance.

Reply Score: 14

RE: Good for Novell!
by Nossie on Thu 8th Nov 2007 18:14 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
Nossie Member since:
2007-07-31

I think its good for Linux as a whole...

Its not that I despise Microsoft... its just I couldn't trust them as far as I can piss. I'd be interested when Microsoft takes advantage of the situation and shafts everybody else in their way. I think you'll find most people that have dealt with Microsoft dont 'hate' them for their products, but the simple fact that they don't know how to play fair without bankrupting some corporation in the process. Either that or they just buy out the competition and sink it (i.e Frontpage).

Otherwise I'd be quite happy that we might have 2 large industry 'standards' working together for the better of humanity.

Seriously, if Microsoft really cared about Novell why would they still be sabre rattling about the supposed 250+ patents they haven't disclosed yet?

If I were Novell, I'd take the money and run... I wouldn't have anything further to do with MS.

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE: Good for Novell!
by justin.68 on Thu 8th Nov 2007 18:17 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
justin.68 Member since:
2006-09-16

rabid 16 year old fanboys who see their OS as a religion

I don't think it's just about 16 y.o. fanboys. There ought to be a philosophy behind Linux and many believe Novell has betrayed it.

Reply Parent Score: 29

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by yanik on Thu 8th Nov 2007 18:28 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
yanik Member since:
2005-07-13

well said.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Sadly...
by linumax on Thu 8th Nov 2007 18:46 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
linumax Member since:
2007-02-07

In the corporate world there is only one philosophy and that is Money.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by Adurbe on Thu 8th Nov 2007 19:09 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
Adurbe Member since:
2005-07-06

There ought to be a philosophy behind Linux and many believe Novell has betrayed it.


You keep your moral high ground, I would rather get work done.

If this partnership helps me do that, I'm all for it

Reply Parent Score: 16

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by historyb on Thu 8th Nov 2007 20:05 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
historyb Member since:
2005-07-06

excellently put

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by thavith_osn on Thu 8th Nov 2007 20:21 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
thavith_osn Member since:
2005-07-11

There ought to be a philosophy behind Linux and many believe Novell has betrayed it.


By saying there "ought" to be a philosophy means there isn't, and if there isn't then it's very hard for Novell to betray it I guess ;-)

I think most people see these moves by Novell as bad is because of the track record and nature/culture of MS (or most corps). MS would like to see nothing better than a 100% MS dominated world (and fair enough, from their perspective (not mine) that is a great thing)...

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by J.R. on Thu 8th Nov 2007 20:23 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
J.R. Member since:
2007-07-25

Who's philosophy? RMS?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by sbergman27 on Thu 8th Nov 2007 20:28 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""

I don't think it's just about 16 y.o. fanboys. There ought to be a philosophy behind Linux and many believe Novell has betrayed it.

"""

I would agree with this. More specifically, as a long time Linux advocate who *does* have concerns about the deal for reasons which could be considered partly practical, and partly philosophical, I'm more than happy to stand up and be counted. On the other hand, the fanboys, whose fervor sometimes borders on religious[1], *are* an unfortunate reality. So I'm glad you said that it is not *just* about them.

[1] Please, no pedantic hair splitting with links to dictionary definitions. The meaning of the word "religious" in this context should be quite clear to anyone not interested in engaging in that kind of double-talk.

Edited 2007-11-08 20:32

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by elsewhere on Fri 9th Nov 2007 05:21 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

rabid 16 year old fanboys who see their OS as a religion

I don't think it's just about 16 y.o. fanboys. There ought to be a philosophy behind Linux and many believe Novell has betrayed it.


Yet the people that want a philosophy behind Linux generally aren't the ones actually writing the code and making the investments.

That's coming from corporate donors. The kernel, the GNU toolchain, Gnome, Xorg etc. are all far more dependent upon paid development support from corporate interests than they are on grassroots OSS developers.

The community has been enjoying the largesse of corporate welfare, while the corporate interests have been enjoying the benefit of community support. So far it's been a good balance.

I'm a strong proponent of the strength behind the reciprocal development model we see in most OSS projects, but I don't bend a knee to the altar of the four freedoms. I respect the work the OSS community has accomplished and am grateful for it, but I can't help thinking that the biggest threat to the future of linux comes not from evil proprietary software companies, but from the zealotry against the very same corporate interests that the community is dependent upon.

Linus created linux and has stated ad nauseum that his interests lie in the power of the shared development model, not the four freedoms. Novell has done nothing to betray this, in fact they have contributed far more than many of those that complain the loudest.

There is a philosophy behind linux, it just doesn't seem to be in line with what many of the more zealous free software advocates would like, and so they do protest. That's where the core issue lies.

Reply Parent Score: 7

v RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by tomcat on Sat 10th Nov 2007 01:21 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by MatzeB on Tue 13th Nov 2007 19:30 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
MatzeB Member since:
2005-07-06

Did that "linux philosophy" you mention contain the rule: You have to hate microsoft.

That is really an interpretation of all the fanboys (though I'm not so sure if they were all 16 years old). Novell is just a business like most other business, still they're a very open source friendly business and at least I respect that (like I respect red-hat, sun and sometimes IBM).

The fight for freedom and open-source has to be won by making a better software world by actively writing free software, not be fighting microsoft!

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Good for Novell!
by rajj on Thu 8th Nov 2007 19:41 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
rajj Member since:
2005-07-06

Fix your broken understanding of religion and philosophy please.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Good for Novell!
by Buck on Thu 8th Nov 2007 20:50 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
Buck Member since:
2005-06-29

Mixed environments such as ours, and many of our clients, do see this as a very positive way forward.

The only thing why it is positive is because Microsoft deliberately broke different standards to make them incompatible and now they're being the saviors of the Linux industry by saying they're going to work on interoperability. If we really had standards in high-level networking and documents from the beginning I guess the marketshare of Windows would be much less than what it currently is.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE: Good for Novell!
by hussam on Thu 8th Nov 2007 21:04 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
hussam Member since:
2006-08-17

fortunately I do not think Novell gives a damn about rabid 16 year old fanboys who see their OS as a religion.

Not every Linux user is a 16 year old kid. I'm a 26 year old structural/construction engineer who makes at least 50 thousand dollars a month. I don't use Linux at work but my home PC runs ArchLinux and hasn't seen a windows installation in years.
And for your information, the Novell/Microsoft deal did hurt a lot of businesses. With Novell admitting the parts of the Linux kernel are illegal, a lot of local small to medium vendors here lost business. Stores that used to sell PCs preloaded with Fedora or Mandriva are unable to sell those PCs because customers now think the only legal Linux distribution is SUSE. Even when those vendors can format the hard disks and load SUSE on those PCs, the damage is already done. The economic value of Linux in the market place is a lot worse now because of the Novell/Microsoft deal.

Edited 2007-11-08 21:06

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by Priest on Fri 9th Nov 2007 11:11 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
Priest Member since:
2006-05-12

You make 50 grand a month as a structural/construction engineer but don't have a system that will run AutoCAD?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by Coxy on Fri 9th Nov 2007 11:37 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
Coxy Member since:
2006-07-01

Its very childish to mention how much you earn, there's more to life then money. Oder? Or is the size of your income got something to do with your age for you? There are seperate for me. Why do you feel the need to mention it?

For someone who clames the moral highground, it's funny you choose to open your post talking about how much money YOU are making.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by rockwell on Fri 9th Nov 2007 21:15 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//I'm a 26 year old structural/construction engineer who makes at least 50 thousand dollars a month//

I call utter and complete bull$hit. I doubt there are more than a few dozen structural engineers under the age of 50 who pull down $600K a year.

And none of them would waste time posting here.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Good for Novell!
by kingbahamut on Thu 8th Nov 2007 21:11 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
kingbahamut Member since:
2005-07-29

I hardly see Stallman, John Hall, and a slew of other Linux Industry standard members as 16yo Fanboys.

Sounds more like the stance taken by a company with a failing business model, much the same as with Linspire as a company. The minute they jump on board with MS, their CEO takes a dive out. Then a few months later turns around to endorse Ubuntu as his distribution of choice.

Reply Parent Score: 3

The End is Nigh!
by Bit_Rapist on Thu 8th Nov 2007 22:15 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
Bit_Rapist Member since:
2005-11-13

Its just a front so that MS can destroy linux and bring patent infringement suits again anyone who touches open source!

Novell is pure evil and wants to make money at any cost. First they bought Mono, then they signed with the devil on a patent deal. Its all so clear I can't believe everyone can't see it!

If you think otherwise you are obviously just an astro surfing, MS loving fanboy who is clueless!

NOTE: The above rant is a joke, but the thread didn't feel complete without it. ;)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Good for Novell!
by segedunum on Thu 8th Nov 2007 22:37 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

While many living in the anti-Microsoft camp will simply despise Novell more for this, fortunately I do not think Novell gives a damn...

Alas, Novell will give a damn when Microsoft, who are their biggest competitor, start replacing all the Suse coupons and servers (which have to be under Windows domain controllers under the deal incidentally) and finish off what is left of Novell's market share from the Netware legacy. Novell are having to get their biggest competitor to sell their own products for them! If you can't see how idiotic that is then I recommend a padded cell.

Anybody who thinks this is rabid 16 your old fanboy talk simply simply doesn't have the first clue about what's going on, and would be best served not commenting. Ask yourself: Microsoft are Novell's biggest competitor, and are being pretty successful at moving Netware customers to Windows. Why are Microsoft going to help Novell?

It's a simple question. Really, some of you idiots are exceptionally naive, but it seems Microsoft can count on such an attitude in most places.

Novell on the other hand does have a community of businesses to which they provides services to, most of which happen to also use Windows (ours included).

Alas, Windows is a competitor. Novell are going to have to do as much interoperability as they can, by themselves, until they convince you that Windows is a bad choice and what they have is better.

Real men and companies compete. Wimps stay up late all night, out of their depth, wondering what they're going to do, and then they whine to the bully to stop and give them their dinner money.

Mixed environments such as ours, and many of our clients, do see this as a very positive way forward.

Does Microsoft's software really help you in a mixed environment? Now that Microsoft has caught the interoperability bug and are supposedly helping Novell with federated directory services, are they contributing to Samba 4 for AD interoperability?

What specific improvements do you expect to see exactly, or is this just all hot air and hearsay?

I am sure if Novell starts to gain market share with Suse Enterprise, many of Red Hats shareholders are going to be none to pleased with their stance.

The bottom line here is that Novell still has a larger revenue than Red Hat, mostly thanks to Netware, whose customers Microsoft now want to get over to the Windows world at a faster rate as a result of this deal (as well as some patent FUD). Novell have declining revenue from Netware and their Linux business isn't growing anywhere near enough to compensate, let alone compete with Red Hat. Red Hat's revenue is going up.

The trend is down, and this deal was a last, desperate throw of the dice - that Microsoft gave to them, and have ones on all sides.

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE[2]: Good for Novell!
by elsewhere on Fri 9th Nov 2007 05:40 in reply to "RE: Good for Novell!"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Anybody who thinks this is rabid 16 your old fanboy talk simply simply doesn't have the first clue about what's going on, and would be best served not commenting.


I agree with your post, but you're missing the argument.

You're one of the few people on this board that are actually familiar with Novell beyond their blogosphere linux involvement, most of the complaining comes from people who simply see MS as the Big Evil using Novell as an instrument in their destruction of linux through patent claims.

I think the MS/Novell deal was a mistake for many of the reasons you point out, because they're in the context of a business sense. I remember the glory days when I was selling Netware licenses like they were going out of style, and the Novell reps scoffed at the idea that anyone would every want to put NT in their server rooms. Novell took a deserved beating, as did a veritable army of many other market-leading vendors, for dismissing Microsoft's capability. To Novell's credit, they're one of the few that survived.

But the argument that most frequently comes up is that Novell is somehow undermining linux with the MS agreement because of the patent issue. That's simply balls off. That's where the 16 yo fanboy comment comes from, and it's mostly on the mark, because few of the posters can actually qualify their arguments, they're simply regurgitating cliches, hyperbole and groklaw dogma.

The Novell deal is questionable for business reasons, but is irrelevant for the philosophical or imaginary patent reasons everybody keeps dredging up.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: Good for Novell!
by alucinor on Fri 9th Nov 2007 14:42 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
alucinor Member since:
2006-01-06

Wake me when something tangible actually comes out of this deal other than "peace of mind". Interoperability with Windows is Samba, WINE, and OpenOffice reverse engineering of .DOC. WHAT has this deal done to contribute to these efforts?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE: Good for Novell!
by trenchsol on Sun 11th Nov 2007 14:10 in reply to "Good for Novell!"
trenchsol Member since:
2006-12-07

I think that it is in the best interest of the consumers.It will make Windows and Linux experience more effortless.

Reply Parent Score: 2