Linked by David Adams on Tue 4th Dec 2007 19:39 UTC, submitted by michuk
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y "It may be a brave opinion but I predict that Ubuntu Linux and Windows Vista are going to be the two operating systems that will take over the largest chunk of the desktop OS market during the next couple of years. This comparison is based on my experience with both systems during the last couple of weeks on two different computers."
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Give it some time
by siimo on Tue 4th Dec 2007 19:52 UTC
siimo
Member since:
2006-06-22

Ubuntu is getting better with every release but I feel it is not there yet. Some tasks still require going to the command-line. Non-tech people should *never* have to see command-line.

Also need to improve support for off the shelf printers and scanners in a plug-n-play sort of way. I know some devices work out of the box but others need some tweaking and then there are some bad ones that do not work at all.

People are not happy when they have a hardware they spent money for and it won't work anymore.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Give it some time
by J.R. on Tue 4th Dec 2007 20:19 in reply to "Give it some time"
J.R. Member since:
2007-07-25

Ubuntu is getting better with every release but I feel it is not there yet.


For me its getting worse. one release ago it stopped working on my desktop workstation, and in the latest it stopped working on my laptop in addition to still not working on my desktop.

But seriously...Ubuntu still has some rough edges that really needs to be fixed before it can take on windows.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[2]: Give it some time
by superstoned on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:00 in reply to "RE: Give it some time"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Ubuntu has been fixing rough edges since it started - sorry, but I wouldn't trust it to finish that anytime soon. Meanwhile, other projects are trying to actually advance the state of the free desktop ;-)

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE: Give it some time
by ggeldenhuys on Tue 4th Dec 2007 20:21 in reply to "Give it some time"
ggeldenhuys Member since:
2006-11-13

People are not happy when they have a hardware they spent money for and it won't work anymore.


Surely you can't blame Ubuntu or Linux for that! If you want to blame somebody, blame the hardware vendors for not supporting the Linux OS! Every time you buy new hardware like a printer, you get Windows drivers and sometimes Mac OS X drivers, but *never* Linux drivers. The Open Source community has been brilliant in creating their own drivers.

I still think Linux supports more hardware out-of-the-box after a new install, than Windows (before you load Windows full of 3rdParty drivers).

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[2]: Give it some time
by miles on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:37 in reply to "RE: Give it some time"
miles Member since:
2006-06-15

People are not happy when they have a hardware they spent money for and it won't work anymore.

Surely you can't blame Ubuntu or Linux for that!


Wacom tablets have a very good open source driver, and it worked in Feisty. The problem with Gutsy and Wacom tablets is definitely an Ubuntu choice.

There was also the whole usb_suspend fiaso in Feisty, which saw many scanners not working anymore, just because *ONE* dev (you know who you are) decided to enable a feature that was considered unstable by Linux kernel devs. When one person decides that it's ok to mess people's office for the sake of experimenting possible small battery improvements for laptops, then something is quite wrong (Mark was aware of the problem, but decided it was ok not to do anything about it, and it didn't show up in the release notes). Then Gutsy went back to a sane configuration.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Give it some time
by autumnlover on Tue 4th Dec 2007 22:46 in reply to "RE: Give it some time"
autumnlover Member since:
2007-04-12

Well I BLAME LINUX when it comes to hardware.

Why ? Here is latest example from experiences of mine:

Recently I managed to get Nokia 6610 GSM phone to be recognised by Ubuntu via some no-name IrDA interface and third party software.

Transfering files from and to phone works ok. But when I tried to use it as an "emergency Internet connection" it failed to connect via GPRS, despite of other people used the same scripts successfully and with the same GSM network as I tried.

By the way - as far as I remember way of connecting to Internet using Windows 3.1 and dial-up modem (software was called "trumpet winsock" or something) it was much easier than under Ubuntu and GPRS nowadays.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[2]: Give it some time
by kaiwai on Tue 4th Dec 2007 23:37 in reply to "RE: Give it some time"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Surely you can't blame Ubuntu or Linux for that! If you want to blame somebody, blame the hardware vendors for not supporting the Linux OS! Every time you buy new hardware like a printer, you get Windows drivers and sometimes Mac OS X drivers, but *never* Linux drivers. The Open Source community has been brilliant in creating their own drivers.


How is blaming the hardware company going to solve the problem? The customer doesn't care for your excuses, they just want the damn hardware supported, and they wanted it supported yesterday.

As a customer I don't care what excuses you give me for why hardware doesn't work - all I care about is whether it works or not. If it doesn't work, you won't get me as a customer.

Same goes for third party commercial applications, we as customers don't care for your excuses - unless the application we want are available on your platform, we don't care how good those replacements are, they aren't the ones we're used to it.

Get used to it, this is the marketplace - where customer is king, if you can't step up and meet the challenge, relegate yourself to a niche.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Give it some time
by cyclops on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:06 in reply to "Give it some time"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

""Non-tech people should *never* have to see command-line. ""

Give examples

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Give it some time
by rockwell on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:14 in reply to "RE[2]: Give it some time"
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//Give examples//

My neighbour, my dad, my sister, my wife, my co-workers, my .... lots of non-tech people.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Give it some time
by miles on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:29 in reply to "RE[2]: Give it some time"
miles Member since:
2006-06-15

"Non-tech people should *never* have to see command-line. "

Give examples


- using a Wacom tablet now requires to edit xorg.conf;
- screen rotation (for LCD with panning support) still needs you to edit xorg.conf, then you can install the gnome applet and it will work;
- as usual, if you want to input any language using scim (Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc...) but you're in an "occidental" locale, you also have to edit some files in addition to using System>Language settings. It's been like that since they broke it from Hoary to Breezy, and even though there's long and documented bug reports in Launchpad, nobody cared about it, except the users - I did set up a wiki to help people like me, but you still have to DIY (see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SCIM).

I love Ubuntu, but these problem have been going on for *years*, have been documented by users, bug report filled and solvable by main devs whenever they'd like to solve them.

However, Ubuntu release notes *never* pointed them, even when they were definite regression and would mess user's system (especially the whole scim fiasco). Reviews (even OSNews reviews) don't talk about them either, even though one is a showstopper (scim) for many people, and one a serious issue (wacom).

Edited 2007-12-04 21:39

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Give it some time
by bert64 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:51 in reply to "Give it some time"
bert64 Member since:
2007-04-23

The same can be said of vista, and xp, and macos...

There is hardware that worked in xp which doesnt work in vista.
There was hardware that worked in 98 that didn't work in xp.

There are things on windows for which you need to manually edit the registry, which is even harder than the command line and easier to break.

Many things are simply easier on the command line, especially from the perspective of an experienced user telling someone inexperienced how to do things, consider the following contrived example:

Type: "sudo apt-get install tcpdump" and enter your password when asked

Click on the package management program, once it loads find and click on the "select new packages" option, once that loads find the subsection called network tools and click on the little triangle next to it, make sure the triangle is now pointing downwards and you should see a new list of things underneath it which are slightly indented, look in that list for something entitled "tcpdump", when you've found it click on the little square to the right of the word tcpdump so that there is a tick displayed inside it, then find the install button at the bottom of the window and click on it.

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE: Give it some time
by fepede on Tue 4th Dec 2007 22:08 in reply to "Give it some time"
fepede Member since:
2005-11-14

People are not happy when they have a hardware they spent money for and it won't work anymore.

Well, this kind of observation is really poinless.

If you want to run an operating system, just go and buy hardware that work with it!

You do the same with Vista, OS X and all the other OS: before buying something you check that it works with your Operating System and the rest of your hardware, so, why should it be different with Linux?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Give it some time
by lemur2 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 22:34 in reply to "Give it some time"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Also need to improve support for off the shelf printers and scanners in a plug-n-play sort of way. I know some devices work out of the box but others need some tweaking and then there are some bad ones that do not work at all.


You are a bit confused there, buddy. You have got it the wrong way around.

Ubuntu works with far more "off the shelf printers and scanners in a plug-n-play sort of way" than Vista does.

If you have an older printer or scanner, and you plug it in to your new Vista box, it is quite likely Vista won't recognise it and that the drivers that came on the CD with your printer or scanner are XP drivers that won't work with Vista.

http://vistaincompatible.com/forums/YaBB.pl?board=hardware

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Give it some time
by aitvo on Tue 4th Dec 2007 23:02 in reply to "Give it some time"
aitvo Member since:
2006-09-03

"Non-tech people should *never* have to see command-line. "

Nor should they have to use regedit, or know things like sysoc.inf to remove stuff like windows messenger from their desktops, but they need to.

No, installing MORE software to tweak their computers isn't right either because it requires knowing basic troubleshooting which they shouldn't have to know either.

Wait, to use Windows they DO need to know that.

If they don't they pay service fees to folks that do.

No matter what the OS is there is always a need to get under the hood. To discredit an OS for providing flexibility is silly.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: Give it some time
by StephenBeDoper on Thu 6th Dec 2007 18:38 in reply to "RE: Give it some time"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

No matter what the OS is there is always a need to get under the hood. To discredit an OS for providing flexibility is silly.


There's a difference between providing flexibility and requiring specialized technical knowledge from non-technical users in order to accomplish something that *should* be simple.

As you pointed out, Windows has plenty of problems in that department too - but that doesn't negate the areas where Ubuntu and other distos need improvement. Windows isn't really a great metric to use in terms of usability - it doesn't set the bar terribly high.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Give it some time
by Soulbender on Wed 5th Dec 2007 13:57 in reply to "Give it some time"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Some tasks still require going to the command-line.


I know some devices work out of the box but others need some tweaking and then there are some bad ones that do not work at all.


People are not happy when they have a hardware they spent money for and it won't work anymore.


Hey, it's just like Windows!

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Give it some time
by gilboa on Wed 5th Dec 2007 14:51 in reply to "Give it some time"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Considering the fact that I just fixed a network problem (packet drop) in my parent's XP by using the netsh shell, I doubt that -any- OS is truly tech-free (by your standards)

Plus, what makes you think that using a very complicated GUI (regedit) is easier then using the command line?

- Gilboa

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: Give it some time
by jboss1995 on Thu 6th Dec 2007 14:40 in reply to "Give it some time"
jboss1995 Member since:
2007-05-02

kubuntu is the best i think but this last release was the worst ever. There are still so many bugs it is not funny. I'm also amazed how they can take some tested and true app like konqueror and make it as buggy as it is. If you use it in another Linux it works fine. But I would still use it over MS.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Give it some time
by shmzr on Fri 7th Dec 2007 02:11 in reply to "Give it some time"
shmzr Member since:
2007-08-06

"Ubuntu is getting better with every release but I feel it is not there yet. Some tasks still require going to the command-line. Non-tech people should *never* have to see command-line."
To work for avg win and mac users this is true... thankfully, pretty much any hardware and system config tasks of avg users can be done with a gui in both Mandriva and Opensuse. Mandriva having the easier to use control center interface, and suse one being a little more powerful, though not as intuitive as the Mandriva one. I personally think the Mandy Control Center is better than either the Windows or Mac one. Ubuntu still has a long way to go there, though is doing better in a few areas, mainly style, community and PR.

Reply Parent Score: 0