Linked by David Adams on Tue 4th Dec 2007 19:39 UTC, submitted by michuk
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y "It may be a brave opinion but I predict that Ubuntu Linux and Windows Vista are going to be the two operating systems that will take over the largest chunk of the desktop OS market during the next couple of years. This comparison is based on my experience with both systems during the last couple of weeks on two different computers."
Thread beginning with comment 288379
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
Can't agree witth...
by sb56637 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 20:03 UTC
sb56637
Member since:
2006-05-11

I can't agree with his rating on Vista vs. Ubuntu software management. In Windows if the maker of an application releases a new version, you download it, install it, and you're done. In Ubuntu, you hope the new release gets backported (it usually isn't) or wait six months and upgrade your ENTIRE system to the next Ubuntu release in order to be able to use the new version of your application. Very, very clumsy in my opinion.

Reply Score: 7

RE: Can't agree witth...
by Touvan on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:01 in reply to "Can't agree witth..."
Touvan Member since:
2006-09-01

You are exactly right about that. In Ubuntu there is no well established alternative to using the Ubuntu repos to grab your software. There should be an easy to follow, even windows-esque way to download software from a random site, and have it install for just your user.

You can do that now. You can download a copy of Firefox, or Songbird or Wine or whatever, and install that into your Home folder. But it's not a well defined normal way to do things in Ubuntu - nor is it easy to find an explanation about how or why that can be done, and seems to be actively discouraged.

Placing a simple Applications folder in the Home directory and having the devs acknowledge that they just can't keep up with every piece of software that users might want to use, could go a long way to helping with this issue. Adding a way to install low privilege applications (and files for that matter, like music and photos) that everyone on the system can access would go even further (my other pet peeve with Ubuntu so far).

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by sb56637 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:06 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
sb56637 Member since:
2006-05-11

If nothing else, they should at least have an unsupported backports repository that automatically backports all Ubuntu Release +1 packages.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by superstoned on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:11 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

Klik might be a solution to the problems you mention. It runs fine on Kubuntu, dunno about Ubuntu but I guess by installing a proper FOSS stack (eg adding Qt and the KDElibs) you should be able to use it.

Reply Parent Score: 4

Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

I agree with you. Not having a central repository of MS blessed apps has never been a problem with Windows. A central place that checks for app updates would be nice though.

What you're proposing is exactly the way that Mac OS X handles applications. All the installed apps are in an Application folder, and the user never sees the rest of the filesystem.

[q]Adding a way to install low privilege applications (and files for that matter, like music and photos) that everyone on the system can access would go even further (my other pet peeve with Ubuntu so far).[q]

That is just a matter of permissions. It could be solved by having one group, users, that everyone belongs to, and have resources that need to be shared be under that's group umbrella. This could be accomplished by symlinking a folder called "shared photos", or something like that, in all of the user profiles. This problem really is just an account setup problem that can be solved easily.

Sooner or later OSs are going to have to ditch the current concept of a "filesystem with folders" and move to a system where folders are nothing but live queries that rely on metadata.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by lemur2 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 22:49 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Can't agree with you.

In Ubuntu there is no well established alternative to using the Ubuntu repos to grab your software. There should be an easy to follow, even windows-esque way to download software from a random site, and have it install for just your user.


Download the .deb file and save it somewhere. Double-click on it in the file manager. (Equivalent to what you would do for Windows).

In Ubuntu ... gdebi runs & manages the package installation. It has been this way since dapper drake.

Gdebi is a GUI installer for locally stored .deb files (ie, not packages that are in on-line repositories). If the .deb file has any uninstalled dependencies, gdebi will get them & install them from repositories in the same way that apt does.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Can't agree witth...
by superstoned on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:09 in reply to "Can't agree witth..."
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

In windows, you have to install the same piece of software through a ridiculously complex procedure again and again. On linux, you install it once, and its up-to-date forever.

In windows, you just have to hope the site or person who sold you the software you installed can be trusted - there is nobody checking up on that. On linux, every piece of software you install is checked on stability and security before it entered the software repository you use, and you can be sure of this fact because each and every package is signed by its packagers personal security key.

If the writer of the software you installed on windows decides to quit, you're stuck with the current version - no bugs will ever be fixed, you will have a hard time getting your data out of the proprietary fileformats into some other app - and you will be forced to go through that pain because a newer version of windows might not run your application anymore. In linux, every person who wants to can improve and fix the application you use, and you'll never have to be without it.

So you get easier-to-maintain, fully checked and certified software you can use forever for free on linux, and you have to maintain your own, expensive, potentially dangerous software with a limited warranty on Windows. One must be pretty stubborn (or ignorant) to stay on MS, don't you think?

Reply Parent Score: 10

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by rockwell on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:34 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//One must be pretty stubborn (or ignorant) to stay on MS, don't you think?//

Either that, or they need to use apps that are only written for Windows, and would rather not use emulation/virtualization.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by sb56637 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:51 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
sb56637 Member since:
2006-05-11

>>In windows, you just have to hope the site or person who sold you the software you installed can be trusted - there is nobody checking up on that....If the writer of the software you installed on windows decides to quit, you're stuck with the current version - no bugs will ever be fixed, you will have a hard time getting your data out of the proprietary fileformats into some other app - and you will be forced to go through that pain because a newer version of windows might not run your application anymore.
>>>


Not at all. I use most of the same applications on Windows as I do on Linux. To date I have not paid a single cent for any piece of software on my personal Windows machine. Openoffice, Pidgin, Gimp, etc, they'll all fare equally well on Linux and Windows in the unforeseeable future. And all three of them are currently outdated on Ubuntu Gutsy with no obvious way to upgrade.....

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by sb56637 on Tue 4th Dec 2007 21:52 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
sb56637 Member since:
2006-05-11

>>In windows, you just have to hope the site or person who sold you the software you installed can be trusted - there is nobody checking up on that....If the writer of the software you installed on windows decides to quit, you're stuck with the current version - no bugs will ever be fixed, you will have a hard time getting your data out of the proprietary fileformats into some other app - and you will be forced to go through that pain because a newer version of windows might not run your application anymore.
>>>


Not at all. I use most of the same applications on Windows as I do on Linux. To date I have not paid a single cent for any piece of software on my personal Windows machine. Openoffice, Pidgin, Gimp, etc, they'll all fare equally well on Linux and Windows in the unforeseeable future. And all three of them are currently outdated on Ubuntu Gutsy with no obvious way to upgrade.....

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Can't agree witth...
by antwarrior on Tue 4th Dec 2007 23:26 in reply to "RE: Can't agree witth..."
antwarrior Member since:
2006-02-11

your post should have come with a warning "FUD!!!".
sorry UD Uncertainty and Doubt , but no Fear. I am sure others have jumped to shoot down certain myths and assumptions about Linux.

1." On linux, you install it once, and its up-to-date forever. "

No, it's old until your distro updates/upgrades and even then it's STILL old ! ( you have getdeb.net for Ubuntu - which can sometimes be a lifesaver, but not often )


2." On linux, every piece of software you install is checked on stability and security before it entered the software repository you use"

How might I ask, by the package maintainer? right... because that's what they do, they check the code for malicious intent... nah mate !


3. "no bugs will ever be fixed, you will have a hard time getting your data out of the proprietary fileformats into some other app"

Would you like to give examples. and if a linux coder quits, youre stuck with your data in propriety /non standard formats until someone else picks up the project, which doesn't happen very often - take a look at sf.net , vaporware central. ( e.g take graphics software , if gimp suddenly stopped, you are at the mercy of the goodwill of programmers who would want to convert your gimp project to another app ... come on!!!)

I think the worst we can do to potential users is to oversell Linux on things that it doesn't necessarily do. Linux is a good thing, but it is not the pancea for all computing woes, it never will be... it can't be ,can it?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Can't agree witth...
by daschmidty on Tue 4th Dec 2007 22:25 in reply to "Can't agree witth..."
daschmidty Member since:
2007-03-01

There are alternative to using the built-in software repos. For one you can add a third party repo(there are countless of them) or you can fetch the .deb of the package that you want from a site like getdeb. Nonetheless I understand why there is no built in documentation to do this on Ubuntu. The third party repos and packages aren't subject to the same security, stability, and compatibility checking that the official ones are.(You can even get "dependency hell" on testing release packages) As a result these should be used at your own risk. However this requires some linux savvy and Ubuntu is targeted at a new user base. The problem would arise for Ubuntu when testing software and outside packages begin to break. On windows, if you download and install software that turns out to be buggy, or filled with viruses/malware, or destroys your system, it is accepted that it's your own fault for installing bad software and windows itself has nothing to do with it. However on Ubuntu, new adopters would be quick to blame Ubuntu for "breaking itself" and "crashing all the time". The method Ubuntu uses is geared to by default only allow stable and safe software to be installed while at the same time it is flexible enough to allow more experienced users(the one who by that point may know how to resolve the messes they cause) to go out and experiment with the newest cutting edge stuff.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Can't agree witth...
by RawMustard on Wed 5th Dec 2007 09:50 in reply to "Can't agree witth..."
RawMustard Member since:
2005-10-10

This is the one thing that annoys me the most with Ubuntu. It's lame, annoying and down right bloody stupid. But I guess that's the price you pay for free software.

Personally, I think Ubuntu has seen its glory, now I'll await another with greater vision to come along and carry Linux a little further, though I'm getting older faster. I wonder if it will happen in my life time?

Ah dreams, they come just as cheap as Linux ;)

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Can't agree witth...
by becco on Wed 5th Dec 2007 14:09 in reply to "Can't agree witth..."
becco Member since:
2006-08-02

In Ubuntu, you hope the new release gets backported (it usually isn't) or wait six months and upgrade your ENTIRE system to the next Ubuntu release in order to be able to use the new version of your application. Very, very clumsy in my opinion.


You've never even used ubuntu, have you? If you want to upgrade one app you upgrade just that one app, not the entire system. You can do it either using synaptic (it takes a couple of muose clicks) or the command line (a 1-line instruction).

Get a clue.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Can't agree witth...
by dylansmrjones on Thu 6th Dec 2007 03:30 in reply to "Can't agree witth..."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

The problem with the crappy approach is that with 150+ installed applications you have a terrible hard and boring job maintaining all these programs, and making sure they are up-to-date. Many of the applications are filled with security holes and you won't know that unless you keep visiting these sites or near-daily basis.

And when you have to update the applications you have to double-click and click click click click for each package. That'll soon annoy you.

Linux suffers from lack of decentralized installation frameworks and Windows (and OS X) suffers from lack of centralized package management.

Reply Parent Score: 2