Linked by David Adams on Tue 4th Dec 2007 19:39 UTC, submitted by michuk
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y "It may be a brave opinion but I predict that Ubuntu Linux and Windows Vista are going to be the two operating systems that will take over the largest chunk of the desktop OS market during the next couple of years. This comparison is based on my experience with both systems during the last couple of weeks on two different computers."
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RE[4]: Give it some time
by kaiwai on Tue 4th Dec 2007 23:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Give it some time"
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

Works for Vista users...although it does seem that a lot of these things are done already, and large companies like Intel/Ati etc etc are now advertising the work they have done in the kernel.

The Odd thing is he mentions printers, now why should an Apple supporter like you have heard of Cups ;)


No it doesn't. Windows users froth at the mouth when their hardware isn't supported - and who gets the blame? not Nvidia, not ATI, but Microsoft. Microsoft will get blamed for everything from their hardware not being supported to their cat being hit by a car.

You mean like Firefoz, MySQL etc. Unless you didn't mean commercial...but another word maybe binary!?


What is so difficult to understand about third party commercial software. Where are the Adobes, Quicken's, the numerous games companies producing boxed software for Linux?

Again, people don't give a sh*t about the excuses, they want their applications; I'm not going to move Linux until there are quantifiable improvements over Mac OS X and all my software is available for Linux.

That is the case for ALL end users; I've been hearing the same pissing and moaning form the Linux quarter for 10 damn years, and yet, in 10 years no one has yet come up with an office suite which isn't slow and bloated, a Photo editing application which doesn't royally suck, or many of the numerous tools out there which are properly developed and MAINTAINED for the long term.

Take inkscape, no improvement forward in months. Passparout is now dead. Pan, again, dead. Pidgin? too bothered about chucking code out because of political arguments rather than adding features when code is made available - anyone remember the video support fiasco?

And yet Apple ;) and Vista both implement DRM which no customer wants. I wonder what you mean. Currently customers bend over for Vista...I was going to make a joke about Vista capable but for those users who where robbed its no joke.


Bullcrap. Apple is growing in the high double digits - yet, people are forced to run Apple Mac's *rolls eyes* stop trying to make up bullshit, because it won't float here.

Vista been a failure - where? all sales figures so far, both retail and OEM have actually been pretty good! so again, stop trying to generate bullshit to prop up your anti-Apple and anti-Microsoft agenda.

How about instead of spreading lies, you actually spend some time fixing the deficiencies in your operating system - then maybe people might voluntarily move to it.

Edited 2007-12-04 23:55

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Give it some time
by cyclops on Wed 5th Dec 2007 00:09 in reply to "RE[4]: Give it some time"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

""and who gets the blame? not Nvidia, not ATI, but Microsoft.""

:O clearly your new to this forum, and others I'll be willing to pull 100 quotes out for you.

""third party commercial software"" GNU has third party commercial software, Firefoz, MySQL etc

"Take inkscape, no improvement forward in months."
http://inkscape.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/inkscape/

last update 16seconds ago

"Passparout is now dead" never heard of it. although a release was out well just two months ago

"Pan" seems quite active http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/pan-devel/

"Pidgin" and yet over the last few months its released
all these versions with all these changes http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/ChangeLog

Not only are you lazy your also a liar ;)

"Apple is growing in the high double digits"

lol not even by Apples accurate figures ;)

"Vista been a failure - where? all sales figures so far, both retail and OEM have actually been pretty good!"

Erm no, thats what hardware companies are having to sack people, and even a year only 80 million is looking kinda lackluster....the good news is though revenue is at an all time high ;)

"spreading lies"

That brought a tear of joy to my eye check my references above to enjoy the irony, for every single statement I am more that willing to point out 10 articles, I expect a full apology XXX

Edited 2007-12-05 00:11

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: Give it some time
by evangs on Wed 5th Dec 2007 08:37 in reply to "RE[5]: Give it some time"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

Mate, are you really this obtuse or do you work hard at it?

""third party commercial software"" GNU has third party commercial software, Firefoz, MySQL etc


How does that answer his question about commercial software? He's talking about software like Quicken and Adobe Photoshop, and you keep banging on about Firefox and MySQL? If you walk into PC World, Fry's, Wal-mart, etc. how likely is it that boxed software that you pick up is going to run on Linux?

"Pidgin" and yet over the last few months its released
all these versions with all these changes http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/ChangeLog


ZOMG, real user names are now shown in the system log! Seriously, how does anything of what you've posted counter the points kaiwai raised? Those "changes" are barely new features. We're still waiting for Pidgin to support video and this isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

Seriously mate, take your anti-MS anti-Apple nonsense elsewhere. We're heard it all before.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Give it some time
by ssa2204 on Wed 5th Dec 2007 00:28 in reply to "RE[4]: Give it some time"
ssa2204 Member since:
2006-04-22

Well kaiwai, for once I strongly agree with what you have wrote. At the end of the day there needs to be support for these applications, and companies like Adobe, Autodesk, etc.. are not going to port to another platform unless they absolutely 110% are forced to. Look at what has happened with gaming and Apple, it becomes closer to non-existent each year. Is this an indicator of the quality of the OS or hardware? Absolutely NOT!. In fact for many years Apple computers had higher performing graphic cards standard than came with most PCs. The shift was the explosion of consoles and the market share of Windows. The gaming companies had absolutely no more reason to support Apple OS, when they figured if someone want to game they could either buy a PC or better yet buy a console. Hence now why most games come out in both PC and console.

Does OSX have some serious limitation as to why Autodesk does not port over? No, not at all. Autodesk does not port AutoCAD simply because they have no reason to, no reason to add to their cost. Most of their users are already on Windows, or will simply move to Windows to use this application. For years I never really even saw Apple as targeting the same consumers as the PC, nor do I necessarily believe they can at this point unless radical changes are done in their business model. But then again Apple has always been happy and proud of it's targeted market and never felt the absolute need to expand. Now with iTunes and others they have no reason to, they have excellent revenue stream from multiple sources.

With that said, if anyone is capable of competing with Windows it would be Apple, and not Linux (speaking strictly of the desktop). With that said I would mention that 95% of Microsoft targeting Linux has nothing to do with desktop Linux, it is not even on their freakin radar for good reason. When they market against Linux this is solely the server space, where Microsoft has for years competed with Unix/Solaris. Since proprietary Unix is moving to Linux, obviously Microsoft now targets Linux as a competitor. But seriously people, and I am thinking of two in particular, get back to reality.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[6]: Give it some time
by cyclops on Wed 5th Dec 2007 00:32 in reply to "RE[5]: Give it some time"
cyclops Member since:
2006-03-12

""Adobe, Autodesk, etc.. are not going to port to another platform unless they absolutely 110% are forced to.""

Ignoring that these product have alternatives ;) and are niche applications. I suspect very likely that Microsoft. (Should we play guess the technology google_ninja goes on about it a*all* the time). is in the process of kicking these companies very hard to either be merged with a larger stronger company or open-source. I suspect a mixture of both.

Edited 2007-12-05 00:33

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[6]: Give it some time
by kaiwai on Wed 5th Dec 2007 00:50 in reply to "RE[5]: Give it some time"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Well kaiwai, for once I strongly agree with what you have wrote. At the end of the day there needs to be support for these applications, and companies like Adobe, Autodesk, etc.. are not going to port to another platform unless they absolutely 110% are forced to.


Even if you take out specialised applications like AutoCad, there are software titles like Photoshop Elements which customers use, Quicken, MYOB, Corel and numerous other consumer applications.

Look at what has happened with gaming and Apple, it becomes closer to non-existent each year. Is this an indicator of the quality of the OS or hardware? Absolutely NOT!. In fact for many years Apple computers had higher performing graphic cards standard than came with most PCs. The shift was the explosion of consoles and the market share of Windows. The gaming companies had absolutely no more reason to support Apple OS, when they figured if someone want to game they could either buy a PC or better yet buy a console. Hence now why most games come out in both PC and console.


I disagree they're non-existent by virtue of a lack of dominance in gaming; Most people don't use their computers for games. Games are a non-issue. Those who are hard core gamers are a very small percentage of the overall user base.

Apple's hardware sales are increasing at double digit rates, they're not sitting at 2 million per quarter; I don't know about you, but thats pretty good considering they sell not a single computer to the enterprise market - which is where a large number of PC's are sold.

Anyway, anyone who purchases a computer for games need their brain examine. Get a console for games, a MacBook for a laptop, and voila, nirvana.

Does OSX have some serious limitation as to why Autodesk does not port over? No, not at all. Autodesk does not port AutoCAD simply because they have no reason to, no reason to add to their cost. Most of their users are already on Windows, or will simply move to Windows to use this application. For years I never really even saw Apple as targeting the same consumers as the PC, nor do I necessarily believe they can at this point unless radical changes are done in their business model. But then again Apple has always been happy and proud of it's targeted market and never felt the absolute need to expand. Now with iTunes and others they have no reason to, they have excellent revenue stream from multiple sources.


The lack of solidworks is also a nuisance as well. Hope that one of them pull their head out of their ass given the rapid rise in the number of people in the engineering field using Mac's. Just go to the engineering department at Canterbury (which is what it is famous for - the Hamilton Water Jet), its Apple central.

With that said, if anyone is capable of competing with Windows it would be Apple, and not Linux (speaking strictly of the desktop). With that said I would mention that 95% of Microsoft targeting Linux has nothing to do with desktop Linux, it is not even on their freakin radar for good reason. When they market against Linux this is solely the server space, where Microsoft has for years competed with Unix/Solaris. Since proprietary Unix is moving to Linux, obviously Microsoft now targets Linux as a competitor. But seriously people, and I am thinking of two in particular, get back to reality.


Apple also knows what it wants. It isn't beholden to the corporates, it doesn't have to constantly compromise development to simply keep some sparmy corporates happy - the same sparmy scum that demands Microsoft to keep stupid amounts of backwards compatibility at the detriment of development, security and reliability.

Edited 2007-12-05 00:53

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Give it some time
by wirespot on Wed 5th Dec 2007 23:08 in reply to "RE[4]: Give it some time"
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

Where are the Adobes, Quicken's, the numerous games companies producing boxed software for Linux?


How about asking Adobe etc. about that? For the life of me I can't understand why you would blame Linux for this. Or for not supporting hardware that the manufacturer refuses to document.

So it's a showstopper for your use of Linux. Who cares? You're not a customer. You're a wannabe user. You're not owed anything. If you want to and are able to use Linux, fine. If you can't, double fine.

Because if you don't contribute anything, you don't exist. You won't be missed. The Linux and FOSS world are a meritocracy, not a vendor-customer relationship. There is no "marketshare", there's only contributors and developers. The advance is slow but steady and it doesn't actually need non-contributing people in order to survive. It survives on people doing things for themselves first and foremost, and that means to stop bitching, take it as it is and if you want it to be better you have to start doing something yourself.

That's the big catch. You have no right to make demands of free software. That software and its developers are there to empower you, not to serve you. If you think it's the kind of relation where you say "here's a ten, get my bags" you're sorely mistaken.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[5]: Give it some time
by dylansmrjones on Thu 6th Dec 2007 03:24 in reply to "RE[4]: Give it some time"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

No it doesn't. Windows users froth at the mouth when their hardware isn't supported - and who gets the blame? not Nvidia, not ATI, but Microsoft. Microsoft will get blamed for everything from their hardware not being supported to their cat being hit by a car.


I don't know about the cat being hit by a car, but I do know people have to pay hilarious amounts of money to get a Windows license. The least you can expect is Microsoft to support your hardware - and you know what: They don't. They rely heavily on third party support, and in those cases people more often blame nVidia or ATI rather than Microsoft. And even then complaining about Microsoft wouldn't be unreasonable since it is the responsibility of Microsoft to make sure all hardware is supported. Either that or they cannot charge for their OS. Charging for OS == support for ALL hardware ever in existence.

Reply Parent Score: 2