Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 11th Dec 2007 20:50 UTC, submitted by diegocg
KDE Some interesting tidbits concerning KDE 4. Firstly, there is a debate whether to close all bugs of KDE 3.x (or not) once 4.0 has been released; you can vote on a poll posing this question too. Secondly, some unscientific benchmarks show that KDE 4.0 from svn is less resource hungry than current KDE 3.x builds. Update: KDE 4.0 RC2 has been released.
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Why people use Microsoft
by saterdaies on Tue 11th Dec 2007 21:16 UTC
saterdaies
Member since:
2005-07-07

This is why people use Microsoft products. So, before any major distribution has even adopted KDE4, they want to end-of-life KDE3. Nevermind slower moving distributions like CentOS/RedHat and Novell, even Ubuntu and openSUSE won't have it for months after release.

It's wonderful to cut off the past. I love doing it. BUT, customers hate it! No business would ever adopt KDE with such a support stance. If you want to argue 6 months, 18 months, 5 years, fine. The fact is that you have to allow people some room to adopt a new system. Why do you think Ubuntu came out with their LTS scheme? Because no business will adopt software that doesn't have long-term support.

Reply Score: 13

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by FunkyELF on Tue 11th Dec 2007 21:26 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
FunkyELF Member since:
2006-07-26

Seems to be a problem with a lot of open source products.
You notice a bug. You find out the bug is fixed in a either a newer release which contains new features and new bugs or you have to go to CVS to get the bug fix (again with new features and new bugs).

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Why people use Microsoft
by rtfa on Wed 12th Dec 2007 13:26 in reply to "RE: Why people use Microsoft"
rtfa Member since:
2006-02-27

That happens with proprietory software as well. The the first response to any report of a bug with MS or Oracle et al is "have you upgraded to the latest version" Its a great trick to say that they'll only support the current or later version and please get your credit card out to upgrade to it

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by cyrilleberger on Tue 11th Dec 2007 21:29 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
cyrilleberger Member since:
2006-02-01

And Ubuntu has Cannonical to offer that support and paid for it. It's not that KDE developers don't want to support KDE3, it's just that we don't have the ressource to do it. If business wants long term support they won't get it for free, they just have to pay Red Hat, Novell, Canonical, Mandriva or whoever else can provide that support.
And frankly, what kind of support Microsoft is now offering for older version of Windows ? It's mostly limited to security, well, KDE is still offering security update for KDE3 and it will keep going until there are users for KDE3.
And remember, KDE is just the Desktop Shell, while Windows is the whole system, there aren't that many fixes in Windows Desktop Shell.

Reply Parent Score: 13

RE[2]: Why people use Microsoft
by g2devi on Tue 11th Dec 2007 22:33 in reply to "RE: Why people use Microsoft"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

There are a few problems with this:

* KDE 4.0 will not have all KDE3.x apps ported to it -- it's just the base platform plus some important apps. You can still use KDE 3.x apps that haven't been ported yet -- you just have to have KDE 3.x run at the same time as KDE 4.0. If KDE wants to cut KDE3.x loose, KDE 4.0 users will have to live with a partially supported environment.

* By giving up on KDE 3.x, any further support work that's done by one distro will be part of that distro alone and not shared with others, especially if some KDE 4.x features are backported. Anyone who was around during the late 2.4 Linux kernels development cycle knows that distros will create semi-compatible backport forks if the development of the main line is too slow.

* The proper way of handling bugs that you don't want to fix because a new release exists is to defer them not to close them. That actually makes it blatantly clear that the bug isn't fixed. If someone wants to backport a fix, then let them and then properly close the bug.

Personally, I hope that KDE 4.0 has taught KDE developers the same lessons that GNOME did when it released its 2.0 platform (or Netscape when it went from Netscape 4.x to Mozilla). The platform was a *huge* improvement over the 1.x platform, but the cost of "porting the world to 2.x" really hurt GNOME. It hurt it so much that GNOME has not tried to make such a massive architectural change ever since. That hasn't prevented GNOME from making dramatic architectural changes over a few releases (compare slow clunky Bonobo filled GNOME 2.0 with fast lean modern GPIO-DBUS-Cairo GNOME), but it has gotten rid of the "break everything then find resources to pick up the pieces while you're still managing the most popular version" problem.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by segedunum on Tue 11th Dec 2007 23:48 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It's wonderful to cut off the past. I love doing it. BUT, customers hate it! No business would ever adopt KDE with such a support stance. If you want to argue 6 months, 18 months, 5 years, fine.

Well, on the desktop side of things, people tend to discard things on a more regular basis because things are moving at such a pace and, relatively speaking, reasonably few people use open source desktops today. Those that do, simply upgrade and take their stuff with them. Virtualisation also makes this a lot easier for businesses. As more people start using open source desktops, needs will change and development practices will reflect that. Distros will need to weigh in with solutions as well.

On the other hand, I have games for Linux I bought seven or eight years ago, and they still work. They have survived umpteen library changes and a major kernel change. Motif applications still work.

Why do you think Ubuntu came out with their LTS scheme? Because no business will adopt software that doesn't have long-term support.

Ubuntu's LTS, like Debian's whole stable things, is pretty much meaningless. All that can happen is that security issues can be just about fixed, although code will have to be merged from elsewhere and you can never really guarantee it, it's extra work, and other forms of bugs probably won't be fixed that are fixed in later versions of the software. Debian has this problem, as the code they have to merge themselves gets problematic. This is basically why Iceweasel came about. It's Firefox, but not a version of Firefox that actually is Firefox.

This gets worse once you have people writing lots of third-party applications.

In the case of KDE, what we'll probably see is KDE 3 libraries being shipped alongside KDE 4 and if they need supported then they will be. It should then be possible to integrate KDE 3 libraries into KDE 4 so that you then get KDE 4 features in KDE 3 apps for free. However, there aren't lots of KDE 3 apps out there that won't be recompiled that will break.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Why people use Microsoft
by phoenix on Wed 12th Dec 2007 19:26 in reply to "RE: Why people use Microsoft"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

LTS for the OS and base libs is fine, and is valuable. Gives you a known-good, unchanging base to build upon.

LTS for the apps that are part of the distro, where they are frozen at a specific version until the end of time, is not. Even with backports, this sucks!

Having security updates for 5 years for the base OS is great, and useful. Having just security updates, with no feature updates, for the apps, for 5 years, is lame, and useless.

Hopefully, someday, one of the Linux distros will realise this, and move to a split "base set of packages for the OS", "separate repos for the apps that run on that base" setup.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by RIchard James13 on Wed 12th Dec 2007 00:09 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
RIchard James13 Member since:
2007-10-26

they want to end-of-life KDE3


Did you even read the article. They don't want to EOL KDE 3. They want to remove all bug reports from the database and start from scratch.

Their reasoning is that there are too many old bugs and there is not enough manpower to go through it all. To quote the article.

Now, what is the plan? The plan is to close all bugs (not wishes) just before or at the KDE 4 release. Of course not all bugs will be fixed in this new release, so they should be reopened. If you don't have the rights to do so, there are ways to get it done to poke one of the bug hunters (basically to be found in #kde-bugs on Freenode). This will result in a clean Bugzilla which is easier to maintain.


This does not mean they are dropping support for KDE < 4 it means they are cleaning out their bug database. To make it easier to maintain.

Reply Parent Score: 10

RE[2]: Why people use Microsoft
by RHCE07 on Wed 12th Dec 2007 00:39 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
RHCE07 Member since:
2007-12-08

I do not remember Microsoft offering long life support on their software? No software company is going to be static, that is the nature of the business and no company is going to say we are going to purchase this software and run it for 30 years...

IF anything companies have left Microsoft environments for Open Source to control their own upgrade cycles. If MS was the crown jewel of support why are they so don't they fix their software and make it secure??? Because they can't!

Reply Parent Score: 2

long time support - MS has to
by gustl on Wed 12th Dec 2007 09:57 in reply to "RE[2]: Why people use Microsoft"
gustl Member since:
2006-01-19

Well, not coming up with a new operating system for 6 years makes you support your older versions already for quite a while.

Locking in customers so thoroughly that even migrating to Vista is painful makes businesses delay migrations. And lets them call for long time support.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by dylansmrjones on Wed 12th Dec 2007 04:11 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Sure, where is the support for Windows 95? NT4? Windows 2000? DirectX 10 for XP?

Microsoft is no different in this regard, except they support for a shorter period, unless you are willing to pay the big bucks. If you don't you get nada whatsoever.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by Soulbender on Wed 12th Dec 2007 08:12 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

So, before any major distribution has even adopted KDE4, they want to end-of-life KDE3.


Except they are not EOL'ing the 3.x series so your entire post is offtopic and inaccurate.

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE: Why people use Microsoft
by rtfa on Wed 12th Dec 2007 13:23 in reply to "Why people use Microsoft"
rtfa Member since:
2006-02-27

I remember Win 2000 being released with over 64000 bugs so that is the reason people use Microsoft ?? Amazing

Reply Parent Score: 1