Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 11th Mar 2008 23:28 UTC, submitted by irbis
Mono Project "Does GNOME co-founder Miguel de Icaza's backflip over the Novell-Microsoft deal a few days ago mean that he has finally been convinced that he is on a one-way path to nowhere? Has he realised that his own project, Mono, is actually putting GNOME on a development track that can leave it open to patent claims one day? And has he realised that creating Moonlight, a clone of Microsoft's Silverlight, (with which the company hopes to trump Adobe's Flash) is not going to advance the cause of free software one iota?"
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RE[3]: O_O
by gilboa on Wed 12th Mar 2008 06:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: O_O"
gilboa
Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft published the core of the .net framework as an ECMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecma_International) standard, which is a reputable standards body. This is not taking into account that every action by MS since Mono came out has been favorable towards the project, but even if we ignore recent history, THEY CAN'T SUE EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO!


IANAL, but MS doesn't need to win a court case - it never did.
How many companies capitulated before SCO's demands? How many will capitulate the second MS fires the first lawsuit?

As anyone who is even remotely familiar with this discussion knows, parts of the framework are under ECMA and therefor safe to use, ....
If Microsoft sues, what we lose is compatibility with windows technologies. Binary compatiblity with windows is just the sugar in mono, and it would suck if it were gone, but it is not the end of the world.


How about Silverlight? under which category does it fall?
Beyond that, do -you- trust MS enough to let MS-designed technology into your own house?

Sorry, MS cannot threaten to sue us all (Linux developers and users alike) on one hand, and ask for our cooperation on the other.

MS's promise (?) not sue users and/or OSS mono developers means, exactly that, (an empty) promise.
If MS is serious in it's intent to work with the community, they can start by changing the .NET and Silverlight license and drop the FUD.

- Gilboa

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE[4]: O_O
by gilboa on Wed 12th Mar 2008 06:30 in reply to "RE[3]: O_O"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

P.S.

And if even if you believe that MS will never sue the Novel team - will this extend to RedHat? How about Fedora? SUSE? Debian?

.. Will this promise hold, if say, MS loses ~10% of its desktop/server market share to Linux? How about a mono/OSX - does this promise extend to them?

- Gilboa

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE[4]: O_O
by Soulbender on Wed 12th Mar 2008 06:39 in reply to "RE[3]: O_O"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

How many will capitulate the second MS fires the first lawsuit?


Pretty much not a single company outside the U.S.

Edited 2008-03-12 06:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: O_O
by gilboa on Wed 12th Mar 2008 14:09 in reply to "RE[4]: O_O"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh OK.
So this only leaves, what, IBM, Oracle, Sun, RedHat, and around 1000 more (let alone their clients)?

(EDIT: Didn't mean to sound so rude... Sorry)

- Gilboa

Edited 2008-03-12 14:23 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: O_O
by TLZ_ on Wed 12th Mar 2008 08:15 in reply to "RE[3]: O_O"
TLZ_ Member since:
2007-02-05

You could see Silverlight and Flash as two evils, and I would not really call Adobe an angel here. Getting Flash to work on Linux is hell and Adobe isn't exactly putting an effort into it. Last time I checked they didn't help the gnash-team either. MS is helping the Moonlight team. Yup, you do get some MS-tech, and if I'm not mistaken some closed code(The media formats), but other than that it's open source. You're probably never going to see a open source. That's better than Flash, isn't it? And besides: Silverlight does offer some interesting tech. It's not all about politics.

(Actually, the Flash plugin even on Windows as pretty much gone to hell after Adobe took over Macromedia. It's transformed into this one single giant memory leak.)

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: O_O
by gilboa on Wed 12th Mar 2008 14:18 in reply to "RE[4]: O_O"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

You could see Silverlight and Flash as two evils, and I would not really call Adobe an angel here. Getting Flash to work on Linux is hell and Adobe isn't exactly putting an effort into it. Last time I checked they didn't help the gnash-team either. MS is helping the Moonlight team. Yup, you do get some MS-tech, and if I'm not mistaken some closed code(The media formats), but other than that it's open source. You're probably never going to see a open source. That's better than Flash, isn't it? And besides: Silverlight does offer some interesting tech. It's not all about politics.

(Actually, the Flash plugin even on Windows as pretty much gone to hell after Adobe took over Macromedia. It's transformed into this one single giant memory leak.)


I do not agree. Far from it.

A company may decide that it's doesn't want to help reverse engineering attempts. (Such as gnash and swfdec) - it's their choice to make. (As much as we may or may not like it)
However, as I said in another sub-thread, to the best of knowledge Adobe never sued nor it ever threatened to sue any OSS reverse engineering project.

I rather wait for gnash or swfdec to work reliably instead of using a Microsoft designed Trojan horse.

You may or may not agree with my risk assessment.
But you cannot argue that MS' past behavior is besides the point in this argument. This argument it far too important to be won on technological merits alone. (As in both technological or plug-in availability)

- Gilboa

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: O_O
by google_ninja on Wed 12th Mar 2008 11:54 in reply to "RE[3]: O_O"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

Silverlight is a different story. MS would have a hard time in a patent infrigement suite due to how much they have helped out with moonlight, but it is MS technology and not under ECMA.

On the other hand though, Flash is an adobe product, and nothing is keeping adobe from dumping linux support any time they feel like it. Not only that, but there probably will never be any flash tools for linux developers, there will be for moonlight. I am not trying to say there is no risk with it, but there are definatley mitigating factors.


Sorry, MS cannot threaten to sue us all (Linux developers and users alike) on one hand, and ask for our cooperation on the other.


You are right, and they aren't.

If MS is serious in it's intent to work with the community, they can start by changing the .NET and Silverlight license and drop the FUD.


You should drop the FUD. You can't start off by saying its not a matter of sueing, then procede to make veiled references to law suites through the whole post.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: O_O
by gilboa on Wed 12th Mar 2008 14:03 in reply to "RE[4]: O_O"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

Silverlight is a different story. MS would have a hard time in a patent infrigement suite due to how much they have helped out with moonlight, but it is MS technology and not under ECMA.


... Let me put this way, SCO managed to drag the case for, what, 5 years now? Given MS' size and their legal department size guesstimation, I;m willing to bet good money that their lawsuit won't be thrown out of the court house in a summery judgment.

.. But then again, IANAL.

On the other hand though, Flash is an adobe product, and nothing is keeping adobe from dumping linux support any time they feel like it. Not only that, but there probably will never be any flash tools for linux developers, there will be for moonlight. I am not trying to say there is no risk with it, but there are definatley mitigating factors.


Sorry. I don't buy this argument.
To the -best- of knowledge, Adobe has never sued, nor did it threaten to sue any OSS project that reverse-engineered its products.
Call me crazy, but given MS' past behavior (*Hint -convicted- monopolist? *Hint) I rather take my chances with Adobe, thank you.

You are right, and they aren't.


They aren't... what?
Aren't threating to sue world+dog or aren't working with the community?

You should drop the FUD. You can't start off by saying its not a matter of sueing, then procede to make veiled references to law suites through the whole post.


Sorry?
MS not suing? If there's one thing certain in this world (beyond death) is that MS -will- sue commercial Linux and OSS distributors the -second- it feels (that it's monopoly is being) threatened.

... I said, (and I quote)

IANAL, but MS doesn't need to win a court case - it never did.
How many companies capitulated before SCO's demands? How many will capitulate the second MS fires the first lawsuit?


P.S. Calling someone else's arguments "FUD" usually means:
"I didn't have any solid argument to counter your claims so I'll just start calling you names"...

- Gilboa

Reply Parent Score: 2