Linked by David Adams on Tue 8th Apr 2008 16:33 UTC
BSD and Darwin derivatives "I am very happy about the direction in which the Mac OS X GUI is going, although sadly many Mac users aren't interested in (or don't know about) the "lower levels" of the Macintosh Operating System. Have you ever wondered why the Terminal greets you with the words "Welcome to Darwin"? Why do BSD and Mac OS share certain bits of code? Why does Wikipedia describe Mac OS X as a graphical operating system? Today we're going to take a look at the underlying open source technology which powers your fancy Leopard OS - the hidden core set of components, named Darwin."
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RE[3]: What BSD could have been
by nevali on Tue 8th Apr 2008 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What BSD could have been"
nevali
Member since:
2006-10-12

I'm not sure why I'm replying to a Moulinneuf comment, but, for the benefit of everybody else reading these comments:

1a. Darwin most definitely is “real” Open Source according to the OSD (which, given that you capitalised Open Source, is obviously what you're referring to).

1b. Darwin, under the terms of the APSL 2, is released under a Free Software license (see http://lists.apple.com/archives/Publicsource-announce/2003/Aug/msg0...). It's not GPL-compatible, but GNU don't believe that detracts from software being classified as Free, and they most definitely know better than you or I, given they defined the term in the first place.

1c. Neither the OSI nor the FSF have any problem explaining how to find the source, share the source, copy it for personal use or make copies for a friend, make derivative work or sell it to other people because the license expressly permits those things. Are you perhaps thinking of the original APSL 1.0 or minorly-revised APSL 1.1?

2a. The source is available from http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/

2b. Just because a version of Mac OS X has been released doesn't imply that a version of Darwin has been as well—the two are distinct products on slightly different release cycles.

3. Server OEMs may not ship FreeBSD, but plenty of hosting providers run FreeBSD. If you counted operating system usage by OEM sales, Linux wouldn't even register on most people's scales as existing, which is clearly a flawed methodology.

4. The BSD license was intended to be corporation-friendly. If any of the NetBSD, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD projects wanted to steer things differently, they could have done: they could have released their respective operating systems under the GPL if they wanted to (note that Linux and glibc, as well as numerous other pieces of GPL and LGPL code include snippets of BSD-licensed code, thanks to the non-advertising-clause BSD license being broadly compatible with many different licenses).

5. The very fact that Apple was able to release the commercial Mac OS X including portions of FreeBSD, NetBSD and CMU Mach (all of which are BSD-licensed) cements firmly the notion that the BSDs are more “commercial-friendly” (as touted). By definition, it can't possibly mean the reverse. The only thing that Apple's licensing of Darwin under the APSL indicates is that Apple didn't want to be quite as “commercial-friendly” with Darwin as the other BSD projects.

6a. Apple is “BSD”, because the operating systems they ship (the only operating systems they ship, and the operating systems people often buy their products for) are all demonstrably BSD-based, even if much of it is no longer licensed under the terms of the 3- or 4-clause BSD licenses. The code still has BSD lineage. Great big chunks of it.

6b. Apple is, by definition, a billion dollar BSD company.

Reply Parent Score: 9

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

1a. Lost cause to try and explain to you what **Real** means. You clearly show that you know only what someone else told you.

1b. Your actually agreeing with me when I said Darwin is not under the BSD but BSD based ...

1c. Actually that's where your wrong , but then that subject and discussion you where not part of until now and still are not asked to be consulted on.

2a. No , some source is availaible but it's incomplete.

2b. Just because your redefining everything , that don't mean reality and I have to agree with you , work on real Open Source project for a change and you have acess to Source code at all time. There is no original , derivative or other project in open source.

You know Real Free Software and Real open Source is not defined against GNU and the GPL nor by the FSF and OSI , it's pathetic to read people such as yourself who are ALWAYS comparing it to the GPL.

Case and point the GPL is not used by Darwin or Apple.

3. Two wrong as usual. GNU/Linux OEM sale register and due to your twisted comment I know you get it that I was talking about Both Service and OEM box witch are in decline for BSD.

4. Corporation friendly means : it create corporation , that use it and that contribute back to BSD. That is what mostly lacking in BSD ...

Also it's a trow away clause as in don't sue me , it's not even a license , License give written permission.

5. Apple is not BSD , BSD based yes , releasing , promoting fostering cooperating fully with BSD , NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X

Proprietary EULA

There NOT using BSD for there commercial Licensing ...

6a No , BSD based.

6b There not using BSD as is or contributing to any BSD projects be it financially , in code or development.

-----

look , if Darwin was Open Source and BSD the other BSD would work perfectly on Apple hardware due to similar hardware support as they would be using the same code , they don't.

Also they would support ATI to the same degree that Mac OS X does as they would use the same code , they don't.

And a very long list of hardware that Mac OS X and Darwin support that other BSD simply don't.

But that's not all , Office and Adobe and other Apple Mac OS X software would also be supported natively on BSD as they would share the exact same code , they dont.

How do you explain that ? Not asking you at all , I know : You don't , you turn around it and redefine thing to fit your bushit !

Reply Parent Score: -1

nevali Member since:
2006-10-12


look , if Darwin was Open Source and BSD the other BSD would work perfectly on Apple hardware due to similar hardware support as they would be using the same code , they don't.


Go and read up on “compatible licenses”. Just because a project is open source doesn't mean its license is magically compatible with every other open source project ever created. The Linux kernel includes GPL-licensed portions of FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD: those modifications can't be fed back into the BSDs they came from, because doing so would taint the license; the same applies here: to port the code back would cause chunks of the source BSD operating system to be licensed under the APSL, which the BSD folk don't want!

Also they would support ATI to the same degree that Mac OS X does as they would use the same code , they don't.


HOW would they? Since when are ATI's drivers open source? Since when do the other BSDs use Aqua (which, incidentally, isn't available as part of Darwin)? And since when do the other BSDs use Darwin's IOKit driver model?

And a very long list of hardware that Mac OS X and Darwin support that other BSD simply don't.


Again, read up on “compatible licensing”. Also look up the driver model of Darwin, which is fundamentally different to that of any of the other BSDs.

But that's not all , Office and Adobe and other Apple Mac OS X software would also be supported natively on BSD as they would share the exact same code , they dont.


Those applications don't even work on Darwin, let alone another operating system entirely!

How do you explain that ? Not asking you at all , I know : You don't , you turn around it and redefine thing to fit your bushit !


I don't need to explain it. You're talking largely about Mac OS X, which nobody ever claimed was open source. This entire article concerns Darwin, which is an Open Source, Free Software, operating system which contains a subset (go and look that up, as you're clearly unsure what it means) of Mac OS X's capabilities and technologies.

Seriously, what on earth are you smoking, and can I get some?

Reply Parent Score: 4

javiercero1 Member since:
2005-11-10

Wow, for such a condescending tone in your messages you really don't know the difference between kernel/BSD userland --which is what Darwin is-- and the rest of the OSX layers/technologies.

Darwin is a subset of OSX, it is foundation of sorts. And it is fully open source.

Your last comment about ATI drivers and Office was precious... LOL.

Reply Parent Score: 1