Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 19th Apr 2008 23:39 UTC, submitted by TheNerd
BeOS & Derivatives Every now and then, the Haiku mailing lists explode with emails about something called the distribution guidelines. The Haiku guys set up a set of guidelines with regards to use of the Haiku trademarks and logos; the "Haiku" name may not be used in the distribution's name, official trademarks and logos must be excluded, but the Haiku icons and artwork may be used. In addition to these cosmetic and trademark issues, the guidelines explain what is needed in order to receive the official "Haiku compatible" logo.
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Comment by TheNerd
by TheNerd on Sun 20th Apr 2008 15:07 UTC
TheNerd
Member since:
2007-06-30

From my point of view (haikuware.com) this "distro" was really only created because of the feedback that was received from the Haiku community about the "Weekly Superpack" we were putting out.

The Superpack was not originally intended to be a separate distro it was simply meant to be an easy way for people to test Haiku with actual software that one might want to use.

Since Haiku's downloadable builds do not include any extra software it is difficult for some people to get a good look at what Haiku is and can do at this point. Especially if they are using a hardware or vmware configuration that does not give network support.

We (haikuware) were simply trying to provide an avenue for people to familiarize themselves with Haiku and maybe even encourage them to become involved with the project.

It was brought up a couple times before whether or not we actually had created a "distro" and in the past we were told that as long as we provided a disclaimer on boot (alert message) stating that it was pre-alpha code and unstable that we were ok to proceed that way. This time it was brought up we were encouraged to remove the Haiku name and logos and re-brand it to better follow the distro guidlines.

I believe that Karl has handled the whole thing very professionally and has taken the appropriate actions to follow the guidelines. On the other hand, I do understand why Jorge has taken the stance he has. He is very passionate about Haiku and does great things for the project so in now way, IMO, does Haikuware.com, Karl, or I want to devalue that in any way.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 18:36 in reply to "Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

From my point of view (haikuware.com) this "distro" was really only created because of the feedback that was received from the Haiku community about the "Weekly Superpack" we were putting out.

The Superpack was not originally intended to be a separate distro it was simply meant to be an easy way for people to test Haiku with actual software that one might want to use.

Since Haiku's downloadable builds do not include any extra software it is difficult for some people to get a good look at what Haiku is and can do at this point. Especially if they are using a hardware or vmware configuration that does not give network support.


There is a good reason why Haiku does not have:

* Extra software
* A live CD
* A downloadable ISO
* All the gooddies that people want to use
* Etc. (add here whatever app/option/feature that has been asked for on the mailing list or forums)

It's because this is for the most part "end user mode" stuff, and we are still in "early development mode," so the priorities are different.

Please give the developers and the project a chance to prove itself before jumping into conclusions. The Haiku developers have not even decided yet what applications will go into the official Haiku distro/s (yes, there may be more than one). So it is simply premature and pure speculation at this time to say or assume what Haiku will or will not include in terms of applications.

If and when Haiku makes it's official end-user release(s) you find that it does not address your needs (or those of others, for that matter), then there is definitely a place for third party opportunities. But to make such an assumption today is simply too premature.

We (haikuware) were simply trying to provide an avenue for people to familiarize themselves with Haiku and maybe even encourage them to become involved with the project.


At this stage, Haiku is targeting only developers, primarily those who can contribute code and/or do some serious testing/debugging. Anybody who does not have the inclination to spend the time or the ability to setup his/her own development environment simply does not fall into this category.

What I am trying to say is that your "avenue" is most likely falling into the wrong hands, with the potential pitfalls that that can entail in terms of missed expectations by people who don't (want to) understand what pre-alpha software is.

As a project, we are making a concerted effort to try to create an OS that has a high standard of quality; we are also making a conscious effort to manage end user expectations, as we want to avoid bad first impressions. The release of Haiku-branded packages as Haikuware has been doing until recently, the way the packages have been portrayed (with too much room for misinterpretation), their legally questionable inclusion of proprietary software at times, and the generalized misuse of the Haiku name and logos on the Haikuware site all go in detriment of these efforts, and that's what we take issue with.

It was brought up a couple times before whether or not we actually had created a "distro" and in the past we were told that as long as we provided a disclaimer on boot (alert message) stating that it was pre-alpha code and unstable that we were ok to proceed that way. This time it was brought up we were encouraged to remove the Haiku name and logos and re-brand it to better follow the distro guidlines.


There is no last time and this time. This is really simple: the current distro guidelines predate Haikuware packages; Karl just had to read and follow them.

Instead, he kept pushing the envelope with his Haiku-branded packages, and somehow felt he had carte blanche because nobody told him anything for a while. He finally crossed a line of no return when he recently included proprietary BeOS software in one of them, and that's when I actually decided to break the silence and raise the issue.

If, as you claim, Karl had no intention of creating a distro, there was really no need to create one. Originally you started the weekly pack as an application only package, and it would have been better if it had stayed that way: he could have scratched his itch, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. ;)

I believe that Karl has handled the whole thing very professionally and has taken the appropriate actions to follow the guidelines.


I don't think ignoring the desires of the Haiku developers, disregarding the distro guidelines (which are pretty clear, btw), distributing Haiku with proprietary software without permission or attempting to use HAICOO as a distro name shows any professionalism, nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.

As I said on the Haiku mailing list recently, I wish we could all forget about Haiku distros for now and instead tried to figure out how each one of us can help advance Haiku to that first release that we all so much desire.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd
by kvdman on Sun 20th Apr 2008 20:45 in reply to "RE: Comment by TheNerd"
kvdman Member since:
2006-04-28

[q]nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.


The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities. Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running). What impression does that leave? Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?

The other idea, was to bundle some tested, working, and popular BeOS applications to show that Haiku really does what it says, achieve binary compatibility... If a user of the images then decides to try some other applications on the disk image he can now actually download stuff to it because it's big enough, he/she can then file a bug report if it doesn't work as expected, because guess what? A browser is included.

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.

Reply Parent Score: 1