Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 19th Apr 2008 23:39 UTC, submitted by TheNerd
BeOS & Derivatives Every now and then, the Haiku mailing lists explode with emails about something called the distribution guidelines. The Haiku guys set up a set of guidelines with regards to use of the Haiku trademarks and logos; the "Haiku" name may not be used in the distribution's name, official trademarks and logos must be excluded, but the Haiku icons and artwork may be used. In addition to these cosmetic and trademark issues, the guidelines explain what is needed in order to receive the official "Haiku compatible" logo.
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RE: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 18:36 UTC in reply to "Comment by TheNerd"
koki
Member since:
2005-10-17

From my point of view (haikuware.com) this "distro" was really only created because of the feedback that was received from the Haiku community about the "Weekly Superpack" we were putting out.

The Superpack was not originally intended to be a separate distro it was simply meant to be an easy way for people to test Haiku with actual software that one might want to use.

Since Haiku's downloadable builds do not include any extra software it is difficult for some people to get a good look at what Haiku is and can do at this point. Especially if they are using a hardware or vmware configuration that does not give network support.


There is a good reason why Haiku does not have:

* Extra software
* A live CD
* A downloadable ISO
* All the gooddies that people want to use
* Etc. (add here whatever app/option/feature that has been asked for on the mailing list or forums)

It's because this is for the most part "end user mode" stuff, and we are still in "early development mode," so the priorities are different.

Please give the developers and the project a chance to prove itself before jumping into conclusions. The Haiku developers have not even decided yet what applications will go into the official Haiku distro/s (yes, there may be more than one). So it is simply premature and pure speculation at this time to say or assume what Haiku will or will not include in terms of applications.

If and when Haiku makes it's official end-user release(s) you find that it does not address your needs (or those of others, for that matter), then there is definitely a place for third party opportunities. But to make such an assumption today is simply too premature.

We (haikuware) were simply trying to provide an avenue for people to familiarize themselves with Haiku and maybe even encourage them to become involved with the project.


At this stage, Haiku is targeting only developers, primarily those who can contribute code and/or do some serious testing/debugging. Anybody who does not have the inclination to spend the time or the ability to setup his/her own development environment simply does not fall into this category.

What I am trying to say is that your "avenue" is most likely falling into the wrong hands, with the potential pitfalls that that can entail in terms of missed expectations by people who don't (want to) understand what pre-alpha software is.

As a project, we are making a concerted effort to try to create an OS that has a high standard of quality; we are also making a conscious effort to manage end user expectations, as we want to avoid bad first impressions. The release of Haiku-branded packages as Haikuware has been doing until recently, the way the packages have been portrayed (with too much room for misinterpretation), their legally questionable inclusion of proprietary software at times, and the generalized misuse of the Haiku name and logos on the Haikuware site all go in detriment of these efforts, and that's what we take issue with.

It was brought up a couple times before whether or not we actually had created a "distro" and in the past we were told that as long as we provided a disclaimer on boot (alert message) stating that it was pre-alpha code and unstable that we were ok to proceed that way. This time it was brought up we were encouraged to remove the Haiku name and logos and re-brand it to better follow the distro guidlines.


There is no last time and this time. This is really simple: the current distro guidelines predate Haikuware packages; Karl just had to read and follow them.

Instead, he kept pushing the envelope with his Haiku-branded packages, and somehow felt he had carte blanche because nobody told him anything for a while. He finally crossed a line of no return when he recently included proprietary BeOS software in one of them, and that's when I actually decided to break the silence and raise the issue.

If, as you claim, Karl had no intention of creating a distro, there was really no need to create one. Originally you started the weekly pack as an application only package, and it would have been better if it had stayed that way: he could have scratched his itch, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. ;)

I believe that Karl has handled the whole thing very professionally and has taken the appropriate actions to follow the guidelines.


I don't think ignoring the desires of the Haiku developers, disregarding the distro guidelines (which are pretty clear, btw), distributing Haiku with proprietary software without permission or attempting to use HAICOO as a distro name shows any professionalism, nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.

As I said on the Haiku mailing list recently, I wish we could all forget about Haiku distros for now and instead tried to figure out how each one of us can help advance Haiku to that first release that we all so much desire.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd
by kvdman on Sun 20th Apr 2008 20:45 in reply to "RE: Comment by TheNerd"
kvdman Member since:
2006-04-28

[q]nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.


The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities. Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running). What impression does that leave? Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?

The other idea, was to bundle some tested, working, and popular BeOS applications to show that Haiku really does what it says, achieve binary compatibility... If a user of the images then decides to try some other applications on the disk image he can now actually download stuff to it because it's big enough, he/she can then file a bug report if it doesn't work as expected, because guess what? A browser is included.

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 23:49 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Hi Karl,

You raise several points here, some of which are valid. Let me try to address each one individually.

The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities.


Haiku is still a moving target; the nightly builds that you use to create the superpacks/senryu not only are far from being stable, but many times they break, sometimes pretty badly. This is definitely not a good base as a tool to demonstrate the capabilities of what Haiku is expected to become in the end, nor will it give any fulfilling experience to anyone who may have any kind of end user experience the expectations. The moment you say that you want to "to provide users with a more fulfilling experience," you are creating an expectation that cannot be currently met. Which is why we do not have demo/images CDs yet.

Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running).


1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important.

3) AFAIK, audio and network do work. But if they don't and you know what needs to be done, please provide a solution through the Haiku mailing list or Trac, to see if the solution can be included in the nightly builds. This is the best way to help Haiku.

What impression does that leave?


I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.

IOW, at this point in the development of Haiku, the nightly builds are not designed or meant to impress anyone, although they are definitely impressive how good they can run at times. ;)

Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?


Now, I think this is a valid point, and I would definitely be in favor of addressing it if possible. May I suggest that you work with Sikosis (who manages our nightly builds) to see how this can be fixed? ;)

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.


Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.

I do acknowledge that there may be ways to make it easier for developers to become productive sooner though. But then again, may I suggest that you try to work with Sikosis and the other Haiku devs to see what viable options can be considered to address this from within the project?

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.


The purpose has its logic and is not the problem per se. The problem is when you put this in the context of the pre-alpha software that Haiku still is, and the various goals that the project has set for itself with regards to quality, branding, etc. That's when you start seeing the discrepancies between the (good) intentions and the potentially negative ramifications.

HTH.

Reply Parent Score: 3