Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 19th Apr 2008 23:39 UTC, submitted by TheNerd
BeOS & Derivatives Every now and then, the Haiku mailing lists explode with emails about something called the distribution guidelines. The Haiku guys set up a set of guidelines with regards to use of the Haiku trademarks and logos; the "Haiku" name may not be used in the distribution's name, official trademarks and logos must be excluded, but the Haiku icons and artwork may be used. In addition to these cosmetic and trademark issues, the guidelines explain what is needed in order to receive the official "Haiku compatible" logo.
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RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd
by kvdman on Sun 20th Apr 2008 20:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Comment by TheNerd"
kvdman
Member since:
2006-04-28

[q]nor do I see how any of this advances Haiku in any beneficial way.


The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities. Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running). What impression does that leave? Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?

The other idea, was to bundle some tested, working, and popular BeOS applications to show that Haiku really does what it says, achieve binary compatibility... If a user of the images then decides to try some other applications on the disk image he can now actually download stuff to it because it's big enough, he/she can then file a bug report if it doesn't work as expected, because guess what? A browser is included.

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 23:49 in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Hi Karl,

You raise several points here, some of which are valid. Let me try to address each one individually.

The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities.


Haiku is still a moving target; the nightly builds that you use to create the superpacks/senryu not only are far from being stable, but many times they break, sometimes pretty badly. This is definitely not a good base as a tool to demonstrate the capabilities of what Haiku is expected to become in the end, nor will it give any fulfilling experience to anyone who may have any kind of end user experience the expectations. The moment you say that you want to "to provide users with a more fulfilling experience," you are creating an expectation that cannot be currently met. Which is why we do not have demo/images CDs yet.

Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running).


1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important.

3) AFAIK, audio and network do work. But if they don't and you know what needs to be done, please provide a solution through the Haiku mailing list or Trac, to see if the solution can be included in the nightly builds. This is the best way to help Haiku.

What impression does that leave?


I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.

IOW, at this point in the development of Haiku, the nightly builds are not designed or meant to impress anyone, although they are definitely impressive how good they can run at times. ;)

Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?


Now, I think this is a valid point, and I would definitely be in favor of addressing it if possible. May I suggest that you work with Sikosis (who manages our nightly builds) to see how this can be fixed? ;)

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.


Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.

I do acknowledge that there may be ways to make it easier for developers to become productive sooner though. But then again, may I suggest that you try to work with Sikosis and the other Haiku devs to see what viable options can be considered to address this from within the project?

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.


The purpose has its logic and is not the problem per se. The problem is when you put this in the context of the pre-alpha software that Haiku still is, and the various goals that the project has set for itself with regards to quality, branding, etc. That's when you start seeing the discrepancies between the (good) intentions and the potentially negative ramifications.

HTH.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd
by bbjimmy on Mon 21st Apr 2008 04:37 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd"
bbjimmy Member since:
2006-03-25

1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.


He does ... did you look at the screenshot of the about window?

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important


Sometimes testing requires video that works.

I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.


You seem to miss the point that the superpack does indeed position the software as pre-alpha, it just lets the software be seen by a larger group than your private little developer club. This is open source software. If you don't want others to try it, even pre-alpha, than maybe you should quit developing it and forget it exists. You can't control who will see your work unless you develop private closed source software.




Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)


Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.


I detect some HAIKU / BeOS snobbery here. Who are you to say that there might not be a very talented and willing developer that will overlook HAIKU because the current devs are insuring and insisting that it is so damned difficult to get a working development environment up and running? You seem to think that a potential developer is willing to spend hours setting up a development environment when he does not even know what HAIKU is all about. GET REAL

Reply Parent Score: 2