Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 19th Apr 2008 23:39 UTC, submitted by TheNerd
BeOS & Derivatives Every now and then, the Haiku mailing lists explode with emails about something called the distribution guidelines. The Haiku guys set up a set of guidelines with regards to use of the Haiku trademarks and logos; the "Haiku" name may not be used in the distribution's name, official trademarks and logos must be excluded, but the Haiku icons and artwork may be used. In addition to these cosmetic and trademark issues, the guidelines explain what is needed in order to receive the official "Haiku compatible" logo.
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RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Sun 20th Apr 2008 23:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by TheNerd"
koki
Member since:
2005-10-17

Hi Karl,

You raise several points here, some of which are valid. Let me try to address each one individually.

The point of the Superpacks, now Senryu, was to provide users with a more fulfiling experience under a virtualized environment - to demonstrate Haiku's capabilities.


Haiku is still a moving target; the nightly builds that you use to create the superpacks/senryu not only are far from being stable, but many times they break, sometimes pretty badly. This is definitely not a good base as a tool to demonstrate the capabilities of what Haiku is expected to become in the end, nor will it give any fulfilling experience to anyone who may have any kind of end user experience the expectations. The moment you say that you want to "to provide users with a more fulfilling experience," you are creating an expectation that cannot be currently met. Which is why we do not have demo/images CDs yet.

Take the default images provided by haiku-filess.org. No proper graphics, burning, audio, or network support (explanation how to get networking running).


1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important.

3) AFAIK, audio and network do work. But if they don't and you know what needs to be done, please provide a solution through the Haiku mailing list or Trac, to see if the solution can be included in the nightly builds. This is the best way to help Haiku.

What impression does that leave?


I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.

IOW, at this point in the development of Haiku, the nightly builds are not designed or meant to impress anyone, although they are definitely impressive how good they can run at times. ;)

Then they come with 150mb of free space. What can we do with 150mb these days? Why not increase, or make a growing disk of 10gb so we don't have to keep careful watch of space restrictions?


Now, I think this is a valid point, and I would definitely be in favor of addressing it if possible. May I suggest that you work with Sikosis (who manages our nightly builds) to see how this can be fixed? ;)

I've tried many BeOS applications under Haiku, and many didn't work (many did too ;) . After testing failing binaries, I filed bug reports, which led to bugs being uncovered in Haiku, which led to Haiku becoming more stable and Haiku's vision of being binary compatible inch closer to its goal. This is what I hope for with these disk images.


Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)

For the developer edition, the hope was to cut down the time, size, and energy needed to setup a build environment in the hopes that the image would get into the hands of interested developers that may contribute to Haiku.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.

I do acknowledge that there may be ways to make it easier for developers to become productive sooner though. But then again, may I suggest that you try to work with Sikosis and the other Haiku devs to see what viable options can be considered to address this from within the project?

That's the purpose, and that's how I thought it would benefit Haiku; but clearly opinions differ.


The purpose has its logic and is not the problem per se. The problem is when you put this in the context of the pre-alpha software that Haiku still is, and the various goals that the project has set for itself with regards to quality, branding, etc. That's when you start seeing the discrepancies between the (good) intentions and the potentially negative ramifications.

HTH.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd
by bbjimmy on Mon 21st Apr 2008 04:37 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by TheNerd"
bbjimmy Member since:
2006-03-25

1) First of all, you need to acknowledge that this is pre-alpha software, and that by definition it is not feature complete, nor fully functional.


He does ... did you look at the screenshot of the about window?

2) The VMware graphics driver is left out of the official nightly builds because it does not fully work when you go into KDL. Because the nightly builds are meant to be for testing/debugging, providing functionality in the kernel debbugger is more important


Sometimes testing requires video that works.

I think you are missing the fact that there is a very specific intended audience for the nightly builds, and that this audience is expected to understand what pre-alpha software is and will therefore not jump to the kind of conclusions that your question implies. That's how we portray and position the builds, not as demos or trials.


You seem to miss the point that the superpack does indeed position the software as pre-alpha, it just lets the software be seen by a larger group than your private little developer club. This is open source software. If you don't want others to try it, even pre-alpha, than maybe you should quit developing it and forget it exists. You can't control who will see your work unless you develop private closed source software.




Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)


Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.


I do see your logic, but someone who will not spend time to setup their own development environment can hardly be considered as a serious candidate for Haiku development.


I detect some HAIKU / BeOS snobbery here. Who are you to say that there might not be a very talented and willing developer that will overlook HAIKU because the current devs are insuring and insisting that it is so damned difficult to get a working development environment up and running? You seem to think that a potential developer is willing to spend hours setting up a development environment when he does not even know what HAIKU is all about. GET REAL

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by TheNerd
by koki on Mon 21st Apr 2008 05:37 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd"
koki Member since:
2005-10-17

He does ... did you look at the screenshot of the about window?


I don't think you understand the point that I am trying to make. It is not the lack of disclaimers, but the fundamental fact that there is an intent to provide an end user experience from pre-alpha software that is problematic. You are creating an expectation that Haiku
is not ready to meet yet.

Sometimes testing requires video that works.


Yes, and that's exactly why the Haiku developers decided to remove the VMWare video driver from the official builds, because it is not fully functional in KDL.

Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.


Why? A software package that people can download would serve exactly the same purpose. As a matter of fact, that's what the Haikuware superpack started as at the beginning. Now that I think of it, it may be even be possible for Karl to work with the developers so that such an application package can be included as an option in the Haiku build process. This is what third party application maintainers are doing (ie., Vision, Wonderbush, Firefox, Pe, etc.), and it works well.

I detect some HAIKU / BeOS snobbery here...


You are probably reading too much into all this. This is open source: the code is online; the development tools are available; there is also a reasonable amount of documentation available on our website; and we have a very friendly and responsive community on mailing lists as well as IRC happy to help. Any eager developer would most likely be able to get started with development with relative ease; your mileage may vary depending on your skills, but it is not as difficult as you want to make it sound.

According to you, the superpack is intended to address people not willing to make the investment currently required to get started. From what we have seen so far during the life of our project, anyone not willing to make such an initial investment is very unlikely to become a serious candidate for Haiku development.

HTH.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[5]: Comment by TheNerd
by petterhj on Mon 21st Apr 2008 09:45 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by TheNerd"
petterhj Member since:
2005-08-19

"Good point: but you do not need to create a distro for this. An applications pack the users can download would perfectly serve this purpose, and it would save you (and me) from the burden of having to deal with branding, trademarks, guidelines, etc. ;)


Actually, he does. This is the only way new testers can test and report on broken software.
"

Thats bull. He could easily have mad an application pack, or better, a BFS intialized VMWare "disk-file" with the increased size and applications. Then he just could have made a new VMX file with this in mind, so that people could download the vmware file and just place the "official" haiku.vmdk in the same folder. No need to update the pack as often, but only when new software is to be included.

But I guess it just isn't as "cool" as to be the one in charge of the "first Haiku distro" and so on.

Reply Parent Score: 2