Linked by Eugenia Loli on Sun 20th Apr 2008 00:35 UTC, submitted by Moochman
Qt Nokia will introduce Qt to the maemo platform in addition to GTK+. The first actual step will be the distribution of the Qt libraries for application development in maemo.org during 4Q2008. Nokia wants to explore cross-platform possibilities between S60 and maemo. It is interesting also to check the interest in the developer community for Qt in the tablets. This is also a way to attract more attention from the KDE community, a sensible move especially if the Trolltech acquisition gets completed.
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RE[3]: Qt quandary
by sbergman27 on Mon 21st Apr 2008 12:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Qt quandary"
sbergman27
Member since:
2005-07-24

I'm a little surprised, despite your qualifier, that's a pretty subjective and totally unquantifiable answer, when you're usually more objective.


Unquantifiable? I should think that the endless flamewars regarding gui libs and DEs should be sufficient to demonstrate that quite a few people in Linux's current target market care enough to endlessly fight over them. You mean Tilly? She's doesn't make up much market share. Melvin makes all those decisions for her anyway. And he tends to have a preference.

I think what is getting lost in the rush to defend QT's honor and prove that it is the best gui toolkit in the world, bar none, is that the original poster was asking why he should not just program in QT and ignore everything else. That's a pretty loaded question.

But anyway, let's add something that is more quantifiable. From Fedora 8:

===
[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires gtk2 | wc -l
167

[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires qt | wc -l
27
===

(The above includes all packages available in the repo, and not just the one's installed. And thank you to Rahul for introducing me to the very useful "repoquery" utility.)

QT's World Domination plan has a ways to go. If QT is so wonderful that there is really no need to consider any other toolkit, and if it's OSS, then why hasn't QT taken over the Free Software world? Are all those devs just stupid? Are they supporting a non-QT toolkit for no reason at all?

To be clear, while others seem to be arguing the point that QT is the one true GUI toolkit, and that no others are needed, I am taking the position that GUI toolkits are *not* a one size fits all proposition from either a developer's or user's perspective. This is, as per usual, mistakenly perceived by some QT fans as an attack.

Edited 2008-04-21 12:57 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Qt quandary
by anda_skoa on Mon 21st Apr 2008 19:26 in reply to "RE[3]: Qt quandary"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

===
[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires gtk2 | wc -l
167

[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires qt | wc -l
27
===

(The above includes all packages available in the repo, and not just the one's installed.


I think both numbers are way to low, even for a distribution with huge monolithic packages.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: Qt quandary
by elsewhere on Tue 22nd Apr 2008 06:20 in reply to "RE[3]: Qt quandary"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Unquantifiable? I should think that the endless flamewars regarding gui libs and DEs should be sufficient to demonstrate that quite a few people in Linux's current target market care enough to endlessly fight over them. You mean Tilly? She's doesn't make up much market share. Melvin makes all those decisions for her anyway. And he tends to have a preference.


Emphasis above added by me.

You're making the same mistake that oh-so-many people in the desktop-linux debate make. That their perceived impressions apply to a larger userbase. The people bickering over Qt vs Gtk are not part of the target market for linux, they are the *existing* market for linux. They're irrelevant. They're a slice of a very small portion of the overall computing userbase. The target market for linux extends far beyond the blogosphere of linux-using pundits.

You arrogantly dismiss Tilly in favor of Melvin. But Tilly is the future, if linux is going to grow beyond it's niche, because we have enough Melvins already and they haven't managed to accomplish it yet, mostly because they allow their introverted perspectives to cloud their judgment and waste time arguing on about the technical merits of x versus y. What they prefer *must* be right for everyone else, no?

I think what is getting lost in the rush to defend QT's honor and prove that it is the best gui toolkit in the world, bar none, is that the original poster was asking why he should not just program in QT and ignore everything else. That's a pretty loaded question.


Who's calling Qt the best gui toolkit in the world? That would, frankly, diminish it's value, since it is considerably more than a simple gui toolkit, which is probably the point most people try to make when they object to GTK proponents dismissing it on vapid "appearance" claims.

As for the OP, he asked a valid question, and you respond with a subjective answer. He should use GTK because you and others prefer the appearance of GTK apps. No doubt that's the very reason that Firefox and OpenOffice have achieved such little penetration in the existing linux userbase, being that they are not GTK-based? To my point, the developers don't care. They will, and should, use what is most effective for them to deliver the application that they want to deliver. Qt has much to offer in that perspective, from a developer's POV. And the users will, generally, choose their apps based on merit as they did with Firefox and OOo, which "belong" to neither toolkit.

But anyway, let's add something that is more quantifiable. From Fedora 8:

===
[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires gtk2 | wc -l
167

[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires qt | wc -l
27
===

(The above includes all packages available in the repo, and not just the one's installed. And thank you to Rahul for introducing me to the very useful "repoquery" utility.)


Stop the presses. Fedora has more Gtk dependencies than Qt? Wow. I supose if I scanned my Windows system and found zero packages dependent on Cocoa then it mitigates OSX as being a viable platform for development.

Sarcasm aside, the issue isn't how many packages Fedora has that are "dependent" upon Qt or GTK, it's more relevant that it will support packages dependent upon either. As will virtually every other distribution on the planet. So, again, developers do not risk losing a potential "market" simply by choosing one over the other. The distro manufacturers, even the one that helped instigate the creation of Gnome with their refusal to adopt KDE under Qt's original licensing guidelines, will support choices.

Besides which, your numbers are suspect. Ignoring the Qt packages, even the GTK dependencies seem a little ridiculously low.

QT's World Domination plan has a ways to go. If QT is so wonderful that there is really no need to consider any other toolkit, and if it's OSS, then why hasn't QT taken over the Free Software world?


It anchors the dominant desktop, and it provides sufficient value that developers pay to use it even on non-linux platforms, so it must have something going for it. Plus Nokia is ponying up $100M or so to buy it, and there is that little aspect of Qtopia, which can bridge cross-platform capability between desktop and mobile devices, and goes far beyond anything GTK can do right now, HIG aside. I'm not sure what your idea of dominance is, but I'd say that it's holding it's own right now.

Are all those devs just stupid? Are they supporting a non-QT toolkit for no reason at all?


See, you're really making the argument personal now? It started with you claiming that people should develop with GTK in consideration of your personal preference for it's appearance, and now it's degraded to anyone not using GTK or alternatives as being perceived as stupid? Don't use the word stupid. Your arguments are usually above that.

To be clear, while others seem to be arguing the point that QT is the one true GUI toolkit, and that no others are needed, I am taking the position that GUI toolkits are *not* a one size fits all proposition from either a developer's or user's perspective. This is, as per usual, mistakenly perceived by some QT fans as an attack.


Again, who argued it's the one true toolkit? Aside from the fact that it's not a toolkit, it's a framework, I objected to the fact that you dismissed it because you think it looks yucky, and I questioned that as being a relevant argument for a developer's POV.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[4]: Qt quandary
by leos on Fri 25th Apr 2008 03:54 in reply to "RE[3]: Qt quandary"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21


But anyway, let's add something that is more quantifiable. From Fedora 8:

===
[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires gtk2 | wc -l
167

[steve@hagar ~]$ repoquery --whatrequires qt | wc -l
27
===

(The above includes all packages available in the repo, and not just the one's installed. And thank you to Rahul for introducing me to the very useful "repoquery" utility.)



haha. Whatever you're doing here, you're doing it wrong. I don't know the correct query either, but if you think that only 27 packages depend on Qt, and only 167 depend on GTK you're delusional. When you use commands like this, you have to apply some logic to the results and always ask yourself, "Does this make sense?". Just listing output without critical thinking is not helping your argument.

Reply Parent Score: 2