Senryu and the 'Be Man' in Disguise
Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 19th Apr 2008 23:39 UTC, submitted by TheNerd
BeOS & Derivatives Every now and then, the Haiku mailing lists explode with emails about something called the distribution guidelines. The Haiku guys set up a set of guidelines with regards to use of the Haiku trademarks and logos; the "Haiku" name may not be used in the distribution's name, official trademarks and logos must be excluded, but the Haiku icons and artwork may be used. In addition to these cosmetic and trademark issues, the guidelines explain what is needed in order to receive the official "Haiku compatible" logo.
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TheNerd
Member since:
2007-06-30

well, I think the whole thing is sad. I personally enjoy trying out the weekly packs so I'm not exactly objective but for me it was just a great to be able to periodically try out a new build together with installed software with no more effort than a click.


This is exactly why the Haikuware Weekly Superpack (now Senryu) was started. IMO and OS can't be successful by just allowing developers to test and fix it. Input is needed from early adopters like us who want to contribute but don't have the "programming" skills.

I can't for the world see what negative aspects the existance of this (clearly marked as ALPHA software) image can have had on Haiku, the target audience is exactly the same as those who download the nighlty builds, only it makes it quicker/easier to try out Haiku in conjunction with third party software.


I feel the same way

now it's clear from Koki's posts that users like me are not something he wishes to cater for, and that the whole idea of this complaint was to make the weekly pack to simply disappear. however since Karl does cater for users like me, instead of a Haiku image that clearly states with a popup that this is ALPHA software (which really isn't that confusing), he has now gone through the hoops of which the result is a new distro named Senryu (which is less confusing?).


I get this exact same feeling when I read Koki's posts. It seems like the Haiku Project (represented mostly by Koki) does not want anyone from "outside" to help with anything or try and provide a place for non-developers to gather and test software (i.e. Haikuware). I bet there have been a quite few bugs reported (and probably already fixed) by Senryu users and no one even knows the difference.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the existence of Haiku's distro rules, but they have the right to choose when and were to enforce them and doing so in this instance comes across as a simple attempt to shut down a weekly Haiku alpha image with pre-installed software, which in my opinion was counterproductive as I can't see in what way it could possibly have had a negative effect on the Haiku project.


IMO, the distro guidlines should be as follows: "Haiku is a registered trademark of Haiku, Inc. No usage of the name Haiku or any graphics included therein may be used for anything"

Having the guidelines posted on the Haiku site, to me at least, gives the impression that Haiku, Inc is willing to help the distro creators to implement them. I know now that this is not the case and the only reason for the guidelines is to discourage distribution creation right from the get-go.

I guess I really better start thinking of Haiku as Haiku Inc from now on, since in this at least it really comes across as a true corporation rather than a open source project done for fun and passion.


I'm not saying it is, but I do get the feeling that some people have the mentality that the Haiku code is proprietary or at least want to treat it as such.

Finally, contrary to some people's beliefs, Haikuware's (Karl and I) intentions are truely only to help the Haiku user community use the technology that we all so much enjoy.

Reply Parent Score: 1

koki Member since:
2005-10-17

Having the guidelines posted on the Haiku site, to me at least, gives the impression that Haiku, Inc is willing to help the distro creators to implement them. I know now that this is not the case and the only reason for the guidelines is to discourage distribution creation right from the get-go.


I think you guys have the wrong impression of what Haiku Inc. is. It is not an evil corporation designed to take over or dominate the world (far from it, actually). It is simply a non-profit to support the Haiku project and its goals, that is run, just like most other aspects of the project, by the very same volunteers that do the coding.

The objective of the guidelines is not to encourage third party distros, but rather build and protect the Haiku brand, something that we think is important to the project and the future Haiku users. IOW, the Haiku guidelines were thought out and spelled ourt to further the goals of Haiku, and not to accommodate the desire of third parties.

I get this exact same feeling when I read Koki's posts. It seems like the Haiku Project (represented mostly by Koki) does not want anyone from "outside" to help with anything or try and provide a place for non-developers to gather and test software (i.e. Haikuware). I bet there have been a quite few bugs reported (and probably already fixed) by Senryu users and no one even knows the difference.


FYI, I did not write the distro guidelines. I am trying to enforce them to protect the Haiku brand from the use and abuse of its trademarks and logo, and its image from potentially damaging stuff like the legally questionable inclusion of proprietary software in the superpacks. The only reason that I am the most vocal is probably because I am the marketing guy, and the developers prefer to stay focused on the code (good thing, btw).

There is nothing wrong with devs/hobbyists getting together and testing Haiku software. But you really don't need to create a distro for that. Of course, we can't tell people what to do, but if somebody wants to have their own little distro anyway, that's fine. But then, a different set of rules applies. This is not unique to Haiku either; many projects have rules that regulate the creation of distros, remixes, etc..

I don't want to shutdown the superpacks as some people have been saying here. I am just trying to make you and Karl understand that the moment you choose to work outside of the boundaries of the project with your own goals and agenda like you have done so far, then a certain set of rules apply. Not that we can't be friends or have common goals; but there is also going to be situations where conflict of interest exist. ;)

I'm not saying it is, but I do get the feeling that some people have the mentality that the Haiku code is proprietary or at least want to treat it as such.


You are mixing up apples with oranges. Open source code is one thing, and branding, trademarks etc. are another. Haiku is made of open source code that has a liberal license. But Haiku also has a brand and trademarks that need to be protected from misuse and abuse. Most open source projects have trademark policies that dictate and restrict the use of their trademarks and logos. This is not unique to Haiku as you seem to imply.

Reply Parent Score: 2

umccullough Member since:
2006-01-26

Finally, contrary to some people's beliefs, Haikuware's (Karl and I) intentions are truely only to help the Haiku user community use the technology that we all so much enjoy.


Let's put this into perspective though - helping the users doesn't necessarily help the developers in all cases.

At the moment, it is the developers that need the most assistance, and while you claim that releasing public haiku-based distributions of an operating system *might* help get more developers and testers, what you don't want to do right now is overwhelm or discourage the existing developers to the point where they pursue other projects that are less intimidating and more fun.

Problem is: dealing with users bitching about quality of software is not fun. It sucks. If those same users are actually helping to improve the quality and actually assisting in other ways, that can be completely the opposite effect. You need to determine what effect you want, and whether you're truly attaining it with your actions, or if you're really making things worse.

I suspect reading comments on public tech news sites about people who simply thing Haiku sucks is extremely obnoxious. Especially if those same individuals have taken no time to actually file a bug, or do not actually take the time to understand why their problem is occurring in a pre-alpha OS. These are the people Haiku doesn't want around *yet*.

Reply Parent Score: 2

tonestone57 Member since:
2005-12-31

Ok people. Everyone take a big breath and calm down.

There is PRE-ALPHA, ALPHA, BETA, RELEASE CANDIDATE (RC) & FINAL. Normally Pre-Alpha & Alpha software is mainly intended for developers/programmers to use and work with and NOT for the general public ( end users ). This is how Haiku Inc. prefers it also. Late Beta builds onwards are for everyone.

Now, speaking for myself, IF the software is *clearly* labeled as Pre-Alpha ( in the About Box & DESKTOP BACKGROUND IMAGE ) then I see no issue with Karl's release and with end users trying it out ( because they'd know what they're using ). After all, it is open source software and he is allowed to make his own distro of HAIKU.

Also, the issue of trademark is important. Haiku Inc. intends to release Haiku OS themselves. Karl can't have a version with included applications called HAIKU and Haiku Inc. come out with HAIKU that basically has the OS - It'd confuse users why there are two different versions of HAIKU. Since Karl made changes to HAIKU ( by adding programs ), then he was essentially creating a distro of it ( different from the original ). Any change(s) constitutes a new distro because it is not the same to the original HAIKU.

In addition, NOT using the HAIKU name is proper because Haiku Inc. intends to release the "Official" HAIKU OS 1.0 when it is ready. And, who wants a bunch of distros showing up with HAIKU in their name??? ie: HAIKU MAX, SUPER HAIKU, HAIKU EXTREME, SUPER DUPER HAIKU, etc. Only HAIKU Inc. should use HAIKU name for their release - trademark also says that HAIKU name belongs to HAIKU Inc.

I'm actually glad to see Karl make his distro and I'm sure others enjoy using it. So long as it's clearly labeled as Pre-Alpha then I won't have any issues with his distro and believe it may be a good thing for getting HAIKU out there - maybe too early, but still. Some fear that Karl's Senryu may be thought by non-Haiku users to be based off the FINAL version of HAIKU and give a BAD impression. That's why making sure that PRE-ALPHA stands out is very important. Haiku Inc should also clearly label "PRE-ALPHA" in HAIKU in the Boot Splash Screen, About Box & Desktop Background Image.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Read more of this thread... >
ari-free Member since:
2007-01-22

Firefox has a similar situation with iceweasel.
http://blog.mypapit.net/2006/11/iceweasel-a-completely-free-alterna...
Note the talkback will be based on open source code for firefox 3.
And that 'firefox' port for haiku can't be called "firefox" because it is not an official build.

Let's try not to be overdramatic at the beginning of a project...

Reply Parent Score: 1