Linked by John Finigan on Mon 21st Apr 2008 19:00 UTC
Oracle and SUN When it comes to dealing with storage, Solaris 10 provides admins with more choices than any other operating system. Right out of the box, it offers two filesystems, two volume managers, an iscsi target and initiator, and, naturally, an NFS server. Add a couple of Sun packages and you have volume replication, a cluster filesystem, and a hierarchical storage manager. Trust your data to the still-in-development features found in OpenSolaris, and you can have a fibre channel target and an in-kernel CIFS server, among other things. True, some of these features can be found in any enterprise-ready UNIX OS. But Solaris 10 integrates all of them into one well-tested package. Editor's note: This is the first of our published submissions for the 2008 Article Contest.
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RE[2]: ZFS is a dead end.
by Arun on Wed 23rd Apr 2008 23:13 UTC in reply to "RE: ZFS is a dead end."
Arun
Member since:
2005-07-07

Can't say I disagree. The layering violations are more important than some people realise, and what's worse is that Sun didn't need to do it that way. They could have created a base filesystem and abstracted out the RAID, volume management and other features while creating consistent looking userspace tools.


Please stop parroting one Linux developer's view. Go look at the ZFS docs. ZFS is layered. Linux developers talk crap about every thing that is not linux. Classic NIH syndrome.

ZFS was designed to make volume management and filesystems easy to use and bulletproof. What you and linux guys want defeats that purpose and the current technologies in linux land illustrate that fact to no end.

The all-in-one philosophy makes it that much more difficult to create other implementations of ZFS, and BSD and Apple will find it that much more difficult to do - if at all really. It makes coexistence with other filesystems that much more difficult as well, with more duplication of similar functionality. Despite the hype surrounding ZFS by Sun at the time of Solaris 10, ZFS still isn't Solaris' main filesystem by default. That tells you a lot.


That's just plain wrong. ZFS is working fine on BSD and OS X. ZFS doesn't make coexistence with other filesystems difficult. On my Solaris box I have UFS and ZFS filesytems with zero problems. In fact I can create a zvol from my pool and format it with UFS.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: ZFS is a dead end.
by segedunum on Fri 25th Apr 2008 02:37 in reply to "RE[2]: ZFS is a dead end."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Please stop parroting one Linux developer's view. Go look at the ZFS docs. ZFS is layered.

Feel free to describe what those layers are and what they do. It certainly isn't layered into a filesystem, volume manager and RAID subsystems.

ZFS was designed to make volume management and filesystems easy to use and bulletproof.

When it's been around as long as the Vertitas Storage System, or indeed, pretty much any other filesystem, volume manager or software RAID implementation, give us a call.

What you and linux guys want defeats that purpose and the current technologies in linux land illustrate that fact to no end.

I don't see lots of Linux users absolutely desperate to start ditching what they have to use ZFS.

That's just plain wrong. ZFS is working fine on BSD and OS X.

I'm afraid you've been at the Sun koolaid drinking fountain. ZFS is not implemented in a working fashion in any way shape or form on OS X (Sun always seems to get very excited about OS X for some reason) or FreeBSD. They are exceptionally experimental, and pre-alpha, and integrating it with existing filesystems, volume managers and RAID systems is going to be exceptionally difficult unless they just go ZFS completely.

On my Solaris box I have UFS and ZFS filesytems with zero problems. In fact I can create a zvol from my pool and format it with UFS.

So what? You're sitting on a Solaris box. When you have HPFS, LVM, RAID and other partitions on your system and you're working out how to consolidate them (or you're a non-Solaris OS developer trying to work that out), give us a call.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: ZFS is a dead end.
by Arun on Fri 25th Apr 2008 21:26 in reply to "RE[3]: ZFS is a dead end."
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07

Feel free to describe what those layers are and what they do. It certainly isn't layered into a filesystem, volume manager and RAID subsystems.


So that means it isn't layered.... hmmm what are you smoking. It's different so it must be bad. I get it.

Breaking that layering was intentional because that layering adds nothing but more points of failure.

It's like saying electric cars are broken and rampant violations because they are not powered by gas. Which is utter nonsense.

When it's been around as long as the Vertitas Storage System, or indeed, pretty much any other filesystem, volume manager or software RAID implementation, give us a call.


Huh?? WTF does that have to do with anything? It is easy to use has no bearing on how long something has been in the market.

Your condition will never be true. Call me when Linux has been around for as long as Unix System V has been around. Unix System V has been around since 1983. Linux since 1992. Linux will never be around longer than Unix SV unless Unix dies at a particular time and linux continues.

BTW ZFS has been around longer than ReiserFS 4. Wait but ReiserFS 4 is completely useless.


I don't see lots of Linux users absolutely desperate to start ditching what they have to use ZFS.


The first comment on Jeff Bonwick's blog post that was linked in an earlier post had some guy running a 70TB linux storage solution who was waiting to dump it for ZFS.

I'm afraid you've been at the Sun koolaid drinking fountain. ZFS is not implemented in a working fashion in any way shape or form on OS X (Sun always seems to get very excited about OS X for some reason) or FreeBSD. They are exceptionally experimental, and pre-alpha, and integrating it with existing filesystems, volume managers and RAID systems is going to be exceptionally difficult unless they just go ZFS completely.


It is just being ported and is unstable. That doesn't mean it is impossible to port, as you claimed, because ZFS isn't layered.

It all depends on how many resources apple wants to put into ZFS and their Business plan. Your claim was directly in relation to some rubbish quote by Andrew Morton. You then, based on ill conceived conjecture, claimed ZFS is not portable because of "rampant layering" violations. Which is just nonsense.

You can create a RAID volume and ZFS can add it to a pool. You can then create a zvol from that pool and format it with other filesysems. You can create a LVM volume and add it to a ZFS pool as long as it is a block device. You can even take a file on a filesystem and zfs can use it in a pool. You have no idea what you are talking about.

http://www.csamuel.org/2006/12/30/zfs-on-linux-works
The link above is about some guys using LVM in linux with ZFS.

You should stop drinking the Anti-Sun kool-aid. Its no secret that you are an anti-Sun troll on OSnews.


So what? You're sitting on a Solaris box. When you have HPFS, LVM, RAID and other partitions on your system and you're working out how to consolidate them (or you're a non-Solaris OS developer trying to work that out), give us a call.


WTF are you on about again? You claimed ZFS can't co exist with other files Systems because of its design. When you have figured out basic software layering and architecture or have at least learned how to look at some HTML code give us a call.

Edited 2008-04-25 21:40 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: ZFS is a dead end.
by Arun on Fri 25th Apr 2008 21:54 in reply to "RE[3]: ZFS is a dead end."
Arun Member since:
2005-07-07


"ZFS was designed to make volume management and filesystems easy to use and bulletproof.

When it's been around as long as the Vertitas Storage System, or indeed, pretty much any other filesystem, volume manager or software RAID implementation, give us a call.
"

When other file systems like VXfs can detect hardware data corruption and not silently corrupt data give us a call.

case in point:
http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=81720

Reply Parent Score: 2