Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 29th May 2008 17:04 UTC
KDE Tuesday, we reported that the KDE project had released the first beta of KDE 4.1, the release that is supposed to be ready to replace KDE3 on normal users' desktops. The information and marketing speak in the press release sure was promising, so Ars decided to take the KDE 4.1 beta out for a spin.
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RE: try it out again?
by lemur2 on Fri 30th May 2008 04:12 UTC in reply to "try it out again?"
lemur2
Member since:
2007-02-17

seems like kde is a touchy subject here.

4.1 looks really interesting and i haven't used kde on a desktop in at least 6 years. Given that i'm sure a lot has changed, (plasma is very intriguing.) maybe now is the time to try it out again.

it would at least put me in a better position to critique gnome.


Novel is managing slowly to get Microsoft hooks into GNOME via Mono and Moonlight. There are a number of GNOME desktop applications such as Beagle search, Tomboy notes, FSpot, Muine which are written in Mono, and hence have Mono dependencies.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080528133529454

The aim would appear to be eventual control over distribution.

Meanwhile, Adobe is opening up the specifications for Flash, and Gnash has reached enough functionality to be more useable on a Linux machine than is Adobe's own player.

Other interesting points to note are that: (1) KDE and Qt are licensed under GPL v3, and (2) KDE 4 (and all of its applications) can run under Windows and become an alternative to Microsoft's desktop.

So it looks as if at least a part of the Linux desktop ecosystem will escape proprietary encumbrances going forward, and competition against Windows will continue.

Hence there is automatically a number of "KDE is rubbish, KDE is ugly" comments posted against every KDE report there is ... often posted by people who have not even tried KDE for themselves.

... do the maths for yourself.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: try it out again?
by sbergman27 on Fri 30th May 2008 04:40 in reply to "RE: try it out again?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

The aim would appear to be eventual control over distribution.
...
Hence there is automatically a number of "KDE is rubbish, KDE is ugly" comments posted against every KDE report there is ...

Lemur, sometimes a rose is just a rose. Conspiracy theories just make us look silly and diminish our credibility. Some people like KDE. Some people do not. Some don't care. You can't pigeon-hole those who criticize KDE the way you are trying to do and still retain trust.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[3]: try it out again?
by lemur2 on Fri 30th May 2008 05:05 in reply to "RE[2]: try it out again?"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"The aim would appear to be eventual control over distribution.
...
Hence there is automatically a number of "KDE is rubbish, KDE is ugly" comments posted against every KDE report there is ...

Lemur, sometimes a rose is just a rose. Conspiracy theories just make us look silly and diminish our credibility. Some people like KDE. Some people do not. Some don't care. You can't pigeon-hole those who criticize KDE the way you are trying to do and still retain trust.
"

That is your conclusion. That is exactly what I asked you to reach.

As for my conclusion ... there is no doubt that Microsoft are trying desperately to exclude the GPL entirely, and at every mention of interoperation with FOSS software they always talk about "for non-commercial purposes".

E.g. I note that there are a number of vendors almost falling over themselves to try to bring out an EEEPC competitor this month. The "sweet spot" seems to be a 9 or 10 inch screen and utilising an Atom processor. Most of these vendors seem to be offering a choice of Linux or XP.

It all seems fine on the surface, but ...

... the Linux versions offered so far amount to Xandros and SuSe. Hmmmmmmmmm. What is it about those two names ... Xandros and Suse ... aren't these two the exact two sell-out distributions?

Coincidence, you think? You really think?

I note that no vendor yet has offered the same model, same configuration of RAM, Disk, CPU & other bits ... but a choice of Linux or Windows, side by side, same machine, only a different OS ... so that a direct comparison can be made.

No Ubuntu variant is offered, or Debian, or Fedora, or even Mandriva (who incidentally went out of their way to make their distribution work with the EEEPC).

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

The MSI Wind 10-inch is a classic. You can have Suse on a model with a 3-cell battery, or Windows on a model with a 6-cell battery and Bluetooth. No "mix and match" is offered.

I wonder why exactly all this is ... exactly who is afraid of a full Linux desktop being compared with their product on an even-playing-field basis, do you think?

Edited 2008-05-30 05:07 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: try it out again?
by stabbyjones on Fri 30th May 2008 04:59 in reply to "RE: try it out again?"
stabbyjones Member since:
2008-04-15

that's a really interesting article. legalese confuses the hell out of me though.

do you think that they are trying to create a higher dependency on moonlight in GNOME? I'm not using anything with mono dependencies right now but would this be a push to try and reduce the use of GPL toolkits in GNOME?

Just from the article I'd be rather use QT or GTK+ over mono just for Microsoft being in the licence.

As far as it affecting my use of KDE or GNOME in the short term, I'm going to play around with 4.1 and see how much better it is from last time.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: try it out again?
by lemur2 on Fri 30th May 2008 05:21 in reply to "RE[2]: try it out again?"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

that's a really interesting article. legalese confuses the hell out of me though.

do you think that they are trying to create a higher dependency on moonlight in GNOME? I'm not using anything with mono dependencies right now but would this be a push to try and reduce the use of GPL toolkits in GNOME?


I think they are trying to create a dependency on Silverlight in order to do "web surfing". That much is clear.

Moonlight is only a subset of Silverlight, and it depends on Microsoft's largess to give you a binary codec for your platform, and Microsoft seem every much to be trying to insist that if they give a binary codec to Novell, and Novell give it to you ... then that is OK, but no fair giving it any further downstream than that.

PS: Ubuntu is "based on Debian". Any number of small distributions are either "based on Debian", or "based on Slackware". A very few are based on Gentoo or on Fedora. PCLinuxOS was based on Mandrake (predecessor to Mandriva). I have never found any distribution "based on SuSe". Hmmmmmm. What was that about "downstream" again?

GNOME (the project) itself would insist that it has no dependency on Mono and Moonlight ... and that much is without doubt true. It is also true to make the note that most of the GNOME desktops you can actually get ship with Mono libraries, Mono programs and I'm sure that Moonlight will be a part of Suse.

Just from the article I'd be rather use QT or GTK+ over mono just for Microsoft being in the licence.

As far as it affecting my use of KDE or GNOME in the short term, I'm going to play around with 4.1 and see how much better it is from last time.


I'm just looking at the writing on the wall. I can see a day coming when Gnome itself will be on the hook with Microsoft dependencies. It is not there yet ... but it sure seems to be on a very slippery slope right now. It also does seem to be on some people's agenda to start it down that slope ...

Edited 2008-05-30 05:28 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: try it out again?
by slight on Fri 30th May 2008 09:37 in reply to "RE: try it out again?"
slight Member since:
2006-09-10

I'm no huge fan of Mono, but you are aware that Gnome doesn't depend on Mono aren't you? There are Gnome apps, which don't ship with the Gnome core distribution, that use Mono, but they're not part of Gnome.

Edited 2008-05-30 09:41 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: try it out again?
by lemur2 on Fri 30th May 2008 10:41 in reply to "RE[2]: try it out again?"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I'm no huge fan of Mono, but you are aware that Gnome doesn't depend on Mono aren't you? There are Gnome apps, which don't ship with the Gnome core distribution, that use Mono, but they're not part of Gnome.


Yes, I said that.

Nevertheless, the GNOME distributions I have tried (Ubuntu, SuSe, Fedora) have all shipped with Mono applications, and the attendant libraries, as part of the base install.

SuSe is especially keen on them ... I think it had each one of FSpot, Beagle and Tomboy installed by default. Doubtless the latest release will now include Moonlight.

The GNOME desktop itself does not require these to be present, and hence it has no such dependencies, but there is nevertheless a strong chance that GNOME users will come to expect them to be there.

Reply Parent Score: 3