Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 1st Jun 2008 21:46 UTC
KDE KDE 4.1, which is supposed to become the KDE4 version usable by 'normal' people, is coming at the end of July. When Ars reviewed the beta release, they were positive in that it was moving forward at an "extraordinary pace". Despite the positive notions in the news, many seem to have problems actually seeing all the new stuff being done in KDE4 - just like how people fail to see the massive amount of work put into Vista. KDE developer Rafael Fernandez Lopez (I'm sorry for the lack of diacritical marks, an OSNews bug we're working on) decided to put together a screencast showing off all the new stuff coming in KDE 4.1.
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meh :-/
by Nossie on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 00:19 UTC
Nossie
Member since:
2007-07-31

I wanted to be more impressed... but I'm not

It still looks half finished
It still looks like the bastard child of <insert x> system
It still uses space so badly 'white space' is everywhere

Really guys ;)

I hate gnome enough but I dont hate it THAT much! I honestly used to think both Gnome and KDE had its merits, but at this rate it wont be till KDE 8 before I even consider making a switch.

What we need is a common platform... something as sexy as either aero or aqua but similarly as consistent Compiz/Kwin have went a long way to at least get the decorators right but the 'start'/launcher menu/bar on both current major linux managers barely meet the consistency of Windows XP

I didn't want drawers lying open with my widgets hanging out on the AmigaOS desktop and active desktop was one of the first things I disabled on win98... why the hell would I want the contents of 'folders' on my desktop now?

Sure, I dont know what the answer to this mess is.. I'm not even going to begin to find one (understanding the complexity of how OSS works) I'm also not a Gnome fanboy...

Linux and its bazillion managers had an edge on windows right up until Windows XP, sure XP looks like it came off the same line as mattels toys but it looked that way right across the board.. After XP the only manager that even came close was enlightenment and even that was only ever half supported by anyone. Then the great fertile OSS soil lay barren until Compiz/Kwin, I just wish to hell we could do the same with our application launchers - get that right and you can add a bazillion desktop osx-like widgets later to your hearts content.

I live in hope... if I wasn't optimistic in general I wouldn't have taken the time to post this drivel ;)

Reply Score: -5

RE: meh :-/
by Nossie on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 00:34 in reply to "meh :-/"
Nossie Member since:
2007-07-31

btw... before you mod me down further for thinking me a troll...

why not parry my statements? you know that whole 'debate' thing that people hear so much of but rarely actually do?

Give me YOUR vision for what KDE will become for you.

Edited 2008-06-02 00:34 UTC

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[2]: meh :-/
by JMcCarthy on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 01:02 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
JMcCarthy Member since:
2005-08-12

btw... before you mod me down further for thinking me a troll...

why not parry my statements? you know that whole 'debate' thing that people hear so much of but rarely actually do?

Give me YOUR vision for what KDE will become for you.

There is nothing to debate, everything you mentioned is subjective at best.

It's like me saying; "I don't like the colour red, it's a bad colour, debate it."

Edited 2008-06-02 01:02 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 15

RE[2]: meh :-/
by bralkein on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 02:16 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
bralkein Member since:
2006-12-20

Actually your arguments are very hard to understand because you haven't really explained them very well.

You talk a lot about consistency, but you don't really define in what sense. Can you give some examples? Is XP really the epitome of consistency that you claim it is? What about all of the differences between Live Messenger, IE7, Media Player and Office? Those programs all look nothing like each other.

What exactly is the problem that you have with the application launchers? How does XP do this better? Why do you think that XP is a better window manager in any way, for that matter. It doesn't even have multiple desktops! It's missing plenty of useful features that are present in any Linux desktop, and it is simply left in the dust when it comes to the more advanced compositing features of the modern X WMs.

Comparing Plasma to Active Desktop is certainly very inaccurate and unfair. The whole folder view opinion is interesting, too. A traditional desktop with icons is just one big folder view itself, really! The Plasma folder view allows an area for traditional icons (in the form of files, as they ever were), or more than one area if you want to organise things that way. Making a set of icons just another widget makes things simple, IMO.

I'm not expecting KDE 4.1 to solve the desktop problem outright, but based on the current rate and direction of progress I am expecting a good desktop, suitable for day-to-day use and with a lot of cool new features, to boot. Apart from that, it seems that there is a lot more untapped potential in the new KDE 4 system, and I think we will see it go from strength to strength in the years to come.

Reply Parent Score: 16

RE[2]: meh :-/
by elsewhere on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 03:43 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

btw... before you mod me down further for thinking me a troll...

why not parry my statements? you know that whole 'debate' thing that people hear so much of but rarely actually do?


Actually, the way things work, you can only either mod down/up, or discuss. Not both. So if you get modded, it won't be from anyone that actually wants to discuss your post, because they won't be able to anyways.

I wouldn't mod you down for thinking you a troll, but I wouldn't "parry" your statements either since you really have nothing of substance to discuss.

As far as I'm concerned, you've decided on the merits of a car based on the color, without bothering to drive it to see how it feels.

And if I could, I would go back and mod you down simply for forcing me to resort to a tired and overly abused car analogy to get my equally ambiguous point across. ;)

Reply Parent Score: 14

RE: meh :-/
by asdx24 on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 01:58 in reply to "meh :-/"
asdx24 Member since:
2007-05-17

If you think that aero is "sexy" then you have no taste.

Stupid troll.

Reply Parent Score: -1

v RE[2]: meh :-/
by Nossie on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 05:38 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
RE[2]: meh :-/
by BluenoseJake on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 15:45 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Uhm, what one person thinks is sexy is called an OPINION, and everybody is entitled to their own. I also think Aero is sexy, compared to XP or pre-leopard OSX, it's almost pornagraphic. It doesn't come close to Leopard or a nice tricked out KDE +compiz or KDE 4, but that's just me.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: meh :-/
by asdx24 on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 02:34 in reply to "meh :-/"
asdx24 Member since:
2007-05-17

why the hell would I want the contents of 'folders' on my desktop now?

If you don't like it, set FolderView containment as your desktop containment and stop complaining.

Edited 2008-06-02 02:41 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE: meh :-/
by _txf_ on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 02:43 in reply to "meh :-/"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

I would like you to enlighten us what you mean by half-finished.

Bastard child of how many systems...I would think that borrowing ideas from various systems is a plus if they are good ideas.

I somewhat agree that oxygen does not make the best use of space... but it is a lot better than the gigantic widgets you usually get in default gnome installations.

sexy as aqua (good goal) but then you completely ruin your point by mentioning the gaudy aero.

You are aware that you're not required to have widgets on your desktop? You can have nothing if you so desire.

The folderview metaphor is an evolution on the use of the desktop for file management where you can have any folder(s) as a dumping ground for all your crap (I honestly don't believe you have never used your desktop as a file manager i.e. dumping files and folders). Again...you are not required to have them there.

enlightenment and xp are completely opposite to in terms of philosophy to each other one is kitchen sink and the other is lightweight (what the hell are you doing comparing them)

OSS soil laying barren until Compiz/Kwin? can I ask what you're smoking?

I wish you'd tell us what you consider positive attributes in an app launcher...especially seeing as though you seem to worship the xp start menu.

I see you mention that your post was drivel...yes I would agree with that, no need for me to mention it.

edit: I hate it when I succumb to feeding trolls

Edited 2008-06-02 02:46 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 8

v RE[2]: meh :-/
by Nossie on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 06:42 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
RE: meh :-/
by tyrione on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 06:37 in reply to "meh :-/"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

I wanted to be more impressed... but I'm not

It still looks half finished
It still looks like the bastard child of system
It still uses space so badly 'white space' is everywhere

Really guys ;)

I hate gnome enough but I dont hate it THAT much! I honestly used to think both Gnome and KDE had its merits, but at this rate it wont be till KDE 8 before I even consider making a switch.

What we need is a common platform... something as sexy as either aero or aqua but similarly as consistent Compiz/Kwin have went a long way to at least get the decorators right but the 'start'/launcher menu/bar on both current major linux managers barely meet the consistency of Windows XP

I didn't want drawers lying open with my widgets hanging out on the AmigaOS desktop and active desktop was one of the first things I disabled on win98... why the hell would I want the contents of 'folders' on my desktop now?

Sure, I dont know what the answer to this mess is.. I'm not even going to begin to find one (understanding the complexity of how OSS works) I'm also not a Gnome fanboy...

Linux and its bazillion managers had an edge on windows right up until Windows XP, sure XP looks like it came off the same line as mattels toys but it looked that way right across the board.. After XP the only manager that even came close was enlightenment and even that was only ever half supported by anyone. Then the great fertile OSS soil lay barren until Compiz/Kwin, I just wish to hell we could do the same with our application launchers - get that right and you can add a bazillion desktop osx-like widgets later to your hearts content.

I live in hope... if I wasn't optimistic in general I wouldn't have taken the time to post this drivel ;)


There is absolutely nothing in that Demo that actually demonstrates an improved workflow, interaction between applications to leverage services ala NeXTSTEP and more.

In short, it's boring eye-candy that entertains and distracts one from actually getting more Work Done.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: meh :-/
by segedunum on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 10:56 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

There is absolutely nothing in that Demo that actually demonstrates an improved workflow, interaction between applications to leverage services ala NeXTSTEP and more.

We know you kiss the ground that NEXT walks on, but there is a reason why NEXTSTEP walks no more and is dead, why GNUStep has not been able to follow in its shadow, why OpenStep never got taken up and why Mac OS X, which followed on from NEXTSTEP, isn't quite as wonderful as the way you remember NEXTSTEP to have been. You didn't have to worry about half the things there as you do on a modern desktop.

Besides, for those of us who actually remember NEXTSTEP (however you want to capitalise that silly name), yep it had decent programming tools and architectures, some half-decent applications were created, but in terms of what you manage these days, the way you manage it and the volume of it, NEXT had nothing to compare with what is in that video.

In short, it's boring eye-candy that entertains and distracts one from actually getting more Work Done.

I love that ridiculously easy line that gets trotted out on these occasions via a three step decision process:

1. If Mac OS X does even a small amount of eye candy in this way then it's modern, stylish and the doyenne of usability thinking.

2. If some Gnome person hacks together some eye candy that isn't really stable for anyone to use in any release, and demonstrates it at a conference, there is general whooping and hollering all round as to how cool it is.

3. If anyone else does something like that then its boring, purely for entertainment purposes and 'distracts one from actually getting more Work Done'.

You should trademark that phrase. Really. I don't know about you, but quite frankly I would rather look at and work with that KDE desktop than a NEXTSTEP one any day. If I could actually find a NEXTSTEP desktop.

Does that help you get work done? Well, if people do it and use it and have a decent desktop to look at I suppose it must do otherwise Microsoft, Apple and free desktops like KDE wouldn't be doing it.

Reply Parent Score: 11

RE: meh :-/
by dagw on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 12:07 in reply to "meh :-/"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

It still looks half finished

It still is half finished.

It still looks like the bastard child of <insert x> system

Well it kind of is. KDE4 has been lifting bits and pieces they like from all over the place and trying to tie them to together in a uniform desktop environment. Unfortunatly the whole tying together thing doesn't seem to be quite done yet. Hopefully they'll put more work into that once the individual pieces are in place.

It still uses space so badly 'white space' is everywhere

Kind of have to agree, but it bothers me less and less the more I use KDE4. I guess I'm just becoming numb to it.

why the hell would I want the contents of 'folders' on my desktop now?

I have no idea why _you_ would or would not want it. However I know that I do want it and think it looks like a good idea that would fit into the way I like to work and organize things. Fortunatly KDE let's me use this feature and you turn it off, making us both happy.

I just wish to hell we could do the same with our application launchers

I just discovered MintMenu in the latest beta of Mint Linux (www.linuxmint.com). I'm not sure what you are looking for, but I agree with you that most launchers have been somewhat lacking and Mint Menu is the first one I actually kind of like.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: meh :-/
by lemur2 on Mon 2nd Jun 2008 12:55 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

I just discovered MintMenu in the latest beta of Mint Linux (www.linuxmint.com). I'm not sure what you are looking for, but I agree with you that most launchers have been somewhat lacking and Mint Menu is the first one I actually kind of like.


AFAIK, Mint menu:

http://linuxmint.com/img/screenshots/elyssa/mintmenu.png

... is an adaptation of Tasty Menu:

http://www.kde-apps.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=41866&file...

Written in Python, I believe.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: meh :-/
by melkor on Thu 5th Jun 2008 03:26 in reply to "meh :-/"
melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

Why cannot either of his comments be moderated. He speaks a lot of truth, and here we go again, we have the Linux brigade (or Linux lovers tm as I call them) who blindly mod down anything that is anti Linux (even if merited). I really wish that the osnews.com moderating facility would be moderated for obvious abuses.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: meh :-/
by Nossie on Thu 5th Jun 2008 04:49 in reply to "RE: meh :-/"
Nossie Member since:
2007-07-31

It's funny... looking at my comments history, it would appear quite a number of people have found one comment, buried it and then sought out every other comment with my display pic and just buried it 'just because' I dont think I've ever been buried below 0 before in my time here and yet my last 5 comments are -4 or below.

Sure, I use gnome... and its kinda ok... in the same way that a ford escort is kinda ok. Gnome and KDE dont live nicely together so I try not to install both these days. Want me to pan Gnome just fore the sake of it?

Here is my desktop most of the time..
http://4development.net/Screenshot.jpg

The gnome bar looks like its been cut and shut from win98, texturing it doesnt help, the icons look flat and misaligned both on the bar and on the desktop..

awn and the desktop cube effect in compiz makes a reasonable job of getting rid of the bottom bar but I've never found anything to properly make the main bar looking anything half as nice as os x OR XP OR Vista... the same goes for the bar in KDE, looks fine till you actually start using it.

All I'm saying is... show me what KDE can do to improve my life as a linux user, how does dolphin sort files, what can I do in that I cant already do in nautilus?

You all must think I'm moaning about KDE for the sake of it... or because I'm some kind of Gnome bigot.. I'm not, I'm just sad that it would appear Linux in general has so much potential and yet carries so much clunk.

I'm concerned that the only thing Linux developers are good at (for whatever reason) is reinventing proprietary UI designs.

If anyone has been following my tirade you'll notice I mentioned how Linux looked soooo much better compared to 2k % win 98 -- god it did at the time, even BeOS was better than 98 but it all seems to have went downhill fast since. Now that all the closed source unices have went down the tubes, and/or opened up to the community... where is the multiple innovative desktops of yore?

Has the desktop interface matured that much that there is nothing left to create? Or have the rock solid unix traditions of 20 - 30 years been churned around by the community so much that there is no more creativity to 'steal'? (apples time machine aka rsync or 'spaces' suddenly come to mind in the 'stealing' category)

Compiz and kwin seem to have been the only unified upgrades to linux in years, quasi-transparent terminals were a nice touch 10 years ago but how long did linux take to catch up with os'x transparency?

Gnome and KDE were nice in a time when Microsoft users were stuck in a world full of motif windows.

So from that point of view, KDE has came a long way and I really respect that, but I dont need to see another cube, I dont need to see another widget I dont need to see how leet you programmers are at making linux look like leopard (or better than, in many ways)..

I guess I should weather out kde 4.1 a little...
http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/find.png

that jimho looks really nice... well apart from the search box and star looking slapped on....

I'll keep wandering till I find something I like, I've been in both kde and gnome camps in my time, I guess both of them will eventually stop sucking at some point. (and no, neither of them suck enough to go back to windows)

I've just yet to see something from either Gnome and / or KDE other than Compiz/Kwin that made me take a step back and go 'woah, I want to use that over x in windows/osx'

.. and I dont think there really is that much subjectivity about it. (unless you have a long grey hair/beard and think anything that requires a mouse is too newfangled)

Reply Parent Score: 2