"Internet Explorer 8 is set to be Microsoft's most standards compliant browser ever. After originally stating that IE8 would default to the same non-compliant behavior exhibited by IE7, Microsoft relented and plumped for standard-by-default. The first beta of IE8 was released in March and it did indeed default to standards compliance. Web developers have been clamouring for standards compliance for a long time; IE is a long way behind the competition, requiring considerable hacks and workarounds to get pages working properly. IE8 should make things a lot better - but it will still fall far short of the standards set by Firefox, Safari, and Opera. Some of these problems are technical, but others are cultural. Where the other browser developers are open and communicative, Microsoft is still leaving web developers in the dark."
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Member since:2007-02-07
-->There is nothing immature about pointing out the flaws in both Microsoft's products and their business practices.
Pointing out flaws is of course not immature, except when the flaw pointed out does not exist as in the case of OP.
-->As long as Microsoft's browser remains as closed and tied to proprietary crap as it currently is, it will always be the most useless browser of the bunch.
If by closed you meant closed source = crap, then I beg to differ and provide Opera as proof.
Regarding "tied to proprietary crap" I would be very much interested and appreciative if you enlighten me what exactly constitutes this proprietary crap. My sole objection of the kind was ActiveX (from a security standpoint) which have been already dealt with in IE7.
The only major issue remaining, web standards support, is supposed to be resolved in IE8.
Personally, I will not fancy the idea of using IE as I am so dependent on several Firefox extensions that my whole computing experience will take an unfortunate dive if I switch. Yet, calling IE useless as a browser, especially for the common 'internets' user is, at the very best, unjustified.
Member since:2005-09-15
You've just used a word which has a lot of importance here, which is MAJOR. Microsoft had hard time in the past dealing with web standard, maybe because they thought they were so big that they monopolized even the web. The only thing we can hope, is they do it right this time. I guess IE8 is in fact what have been planned for IE7 and just got postponed. I remember reading a lot of stuff about IE7 supposed improved standard compliance. When Vista launched, the IE dev team finally issued a statement that standards compliance wasn't so important.
Hopefully, if it true, prepare to get a whole new browsing experience, even with other browser, because MS will target their .Net framework and other web technologies at the standard web. A compliant IE means a better web for anyone. If web developers drop their dependence on old IE-bound technology, more people will start to use other browsers. A lot of people still use IE exclusively because they're bound to it, because of their banking site or other important institutional site.
No more javascript and CSS hacking, yeah!
Member since:2005-07-05
"Pointing out flaws is of course not immature, except when the flaw pointed out does not exist as in the case of OP."
I don't know. IE sucks so bad to program for that I think one may very well be justified in pointing out non-existent flaws as well. 
"If by closed you meant closed source = crap, then I beg to differ and provide Opera as proof."
No, I don't mean closed source. I mean closed as in not following web standards, but instead following Microsoft's proprietary closed standards. You are right, some of this has been fixed in IE 7, but not enough.
"Regarding "tied to proprietary crap" I would be very much interested and appreciative if you enlighten me what exactly constitutes this proprietary crap."
Same as above. Microsoft's CSS support is still not up to snuff, and IE should just drop ActiveX support all together. At least IE7 finally made XMLHttpRequest a native object instead of a retarded ActiveX object. All the other browsers follow open standards, Microsoft traditionally has not. They are coming around, but too slowly.
"The only major issue remaining, web standards support, is supposed to be resolved in IE8."
We'll see. When I can write web code on my OS X or Linux machine and have it run in IE without all the hoops and headstands, I'll share in your optimism.
"Yet, calling IE useless as a browser, especially for the common 'internets' user is, at the very best, unjustified."
I'm not calling it a useless browser for the average user at all. I'm saying it is a heap of crap to program for.
Now, IE does only run on Windows, and I would say that with the exception of games, Windows is a useless OS compared to everything else out there, so by association...
Member since:2006-01-06
Except that you really don't have any point to make. IE8 is standards-based. You can embed content in your pages to provide compatibility with previous browser versions, but that isn't the default. So, really, what is your point, other than venting?
Compare the security records of Firefox, Safari, and IE7. Unless you're one of those people whose ideology prevents him from objectively evaluating cold, hard facts, you'll discover (oh, the shock, the horror) that Firefox/Safari have had, in fact, far more vulnerabilities than IE7. Yeah, all of that bunk about browsing "safer" was just that: bunk. Further, for all those "advances" that Firefox has made, it's had remarkable difficulty getting plug-ins to work from one update to the next. I've lost count of the number of times that it's crashed; meanwhile, I'm told to get rid of my existing plug-ins before installing new updates, and then reinstall the plug-ins, afterward. Wow... remind me about all this newfound efficiency that I'm supposed to be seeing...
Opera is closed. Does that make it "crap", too? Nope, didn't think so. And what, exactly, is "proprietary" about IE8? Like Opera, it's built on prevailing Web standards.
Edited 2008-06-16 07:30 UTC
Member since:2005-11-10
And if you examine those facts without your blinding ideology, you'll see that the mean time between a security issue being raised, and the patch being issued is a factor smaller than with IE; for whom Microsoft not only does not fully disclose many vulnerabilities, and tries to mask them as Windows bugs, they leave people in a state of complete insecurity for weeks, months and even years before finally patching that zero-day exploit.
In 2006, IE was insecure for 284 days waiting for patches, where Firefox experienced just one 9-day period for that year. http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/01/internet_explore...
As a computer doctor fixing messed up, virus-ridden machines every day, I *know* Firefox is more secure than IE, and the facts back it up.
---
Secondly, IE is not standards based. It has standards tacked on. Try developing something serious for it, and then get back to me on how good it dealt with the standards. There's no native SVG, the Javascript implementation is a complete disaster, the DOM is still full of proprietary junk. The CSS engine still fails at the basics.
Member since:2005-07-06
The point being made here is that someone shouldn't need to write any code to make their sites compatible with IE8 because it should have been done right in IE from day one.
Thanks for admitting that IE has been a clusterf*** for compatibility from the very first minute.
I love the way security problems are categorised in the Windows world ;-).
Has it? Hmmmm.
The answer is no because it actually works properly, and doesn't make life difficult for web developers because they want to write code that locks you into their browser.
I don't think you understand what proprietary means. Have you not picked up anything since you've been around here? You can't just pull the term 'web standards' off an MSDN blog and start shouting it from the rooftops.
Member since:2005-07-05
"Except that you really don't have any point to make. IE8 is standards-based."
As I said in a previous post, "We'll see". When I don't have to pull my bottom lip up over the top of my head and staple it to the back of my neck to get some Javascript or CSS to work right in IE, I'll stop calling IE a complete waste of time to program for.
"Compare the security records of Firefox, Safari, and IE7."
I'm not talking about using IE. I don't run Windows, so I don't use it. I have wasted many hours trying to get code that works fine in Opera, Firefox, and Safari to work right in IE though. As long as that is the case, IE is and always will be the town idiot.
"Opera is closed. Does that make it "crap", too? Nope, didn't think so."
Actually, that's debatable. I don't particularly like Opera from a usability standpoint. It is a good browser though. However, I am not talking about closed source. I am talking about closed, Microsoft-only ways that I have to interact with the browser as a developer. I don't give two hoots in poop what browsers other people use. I only care when a browser wastes my time as I'm programming and IE has definitely done that.
"And what, exactly, is "proprietary" about IE8? Like Opera, it's built on prevailing Web standards."
When, like Opera, I can write a web app without having to waste a bunch of time writing workarounds, I will stop calling IE a heap of poo.
Edited 2008-06-17 05:48 UTC
Member since:2005-07-05
@tomcat
Oh, I forgot to comment on your statement regarding Firefox plugins.
I would MUCH rather uninstall old code and replace it with new that have the Firefox guys build in support for every previous version ever made. That is another one of the big reasons IE sucks. ActiveX support, for instance, should be dropped and dropped hard. It should have never been included in the browser in the first place. It was a bad, poorly implemented idea from the start.
In my opinion, it is always best to force people to migrate away from outdated technologies and "standards" like ActiveX.
Member since:
2005-07-05
There is nothing immature about pointing out the flaws in both Microsoft's products and their business practices. Even with the improvements IE 7 has, it is still the town idiot of web browsers. IE 8 will be the same.
As long as Microsoft's browser remains as closed and tied to proprietary crap as it currently is, it will always be the most useless browser of the bunch.