Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 16th Jun 2008 07:09 UTC
KDE Probably the most often misunderstood element of KDE4 is Plasma, the extensive widget engine that replaces the normal desktop and the Kicker panel from KDE 3.x. The entire KDE4 desktop is built up out of Plasmoids (yet another term for desk accessory), including the panel and the desktop itself - and it is the latter that has been causing quite some confusion. Where are my desktop icons? Update: Aaron Seigo has published a screencast showing how the FolderView Plasmoid behaves as a normal desktop, and how to make it so.
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RE[3]: great
by dagw on Mon 16th Jun 2008 11:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: great"
dagw
Member since:
2005-07-06

Writing off potential "customers" whom are interested in your project and have questions, concerns and/or suggestions as "poisonous people" is not a good strategy in my book. On the whole 5 vocal critics will give you far more useful (if perhaps a bit loud) feedback than 50 fawning fanboys

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[4]: great
by lemur2 on Mon 16th Jun 2008 11:49 in reply to "RE[3]: great"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Writing off potential "customers" whom are interested in your project and have questions, concerns and/or suggestions as "poisonous people" is not a good strategy in my book. On the whole 5 vocal critics will give you far more useful (if perhaps a bit loud) feedback than 50 fawning fanboys


Where were these critics when concerns and/or suggestions for the design of KDE 4 were actively being sought?

http://www.kde.org/getinvolved/

http://quality.kde.org/

http://quality.kde.org/develop/modules/

https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability

http://developer.kde.org/documentation/design/ui/index.html

http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/basics/i...

http://quality.kde.org/develop/howto/howtopromo.php

http://www.kde.org/support/

Edited 2008-06-16 11:56 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: great
by MamiyaOtaru on Mon 16th Jun 2008 18:26 in reply to "RE[4]: great"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

"Where were these critics when concerns and/or suggestions for the design of KDE 4 were actively being sought?"

In my case I was complaining about stuff I didn't like the sound of, like a new filebrowser that at the time didn't have a tree view and still has a broken one, or wondering what was wrong with symlinks to bring files from disparate areas of the filesystem into the desktop.

I'm not the only one. People who criticized back then were told "how can you criticize when it isn't even out yet? Wait and see!" Then it comes out and people complain and you're saying "where were you during the design stage?" wtf.

Sure it would have been more constructive to join committees and be active on mailing lists or submit code, but not everyone has time for that. As it works in OSS people who leave comments on news sites (/me raises hand) instead of the more official channels get less of a say in how things go, but that doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with how things turn out.

Do people overreact, and not give new ideas a fair chance? Sure. Does that make it harder for newer and better stuff to get through? Yeah. But is it really better if it's not what people expect or want? umm.. Is it better to give people the option of the old if it means they will never experience the new and potentially better? Or is it better to force a new desktop interface on them? umm..

Once I got to that point last year (not being able to answer those questions to my satisfaction) I decided to leave it and see how it plays out. So that's been less complaining from me, but at the same time I'm still not using KDE4. I guess change is just hard, for all involved and I feel for all involved.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: great
by kragil on Mon 16th Jun 2008 11:58 in reply to "RE[3]: great"
kragil Member since:
2006-01-04

Just read these comments and you will get what I mean:

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/06/maybe-people-will-understand-pic...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: great
by lemur2 on Mon 16th Jun 2008 12:27 in reply to "RE[4]: great"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

Just read these comments and you will get what I mean:

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/06/maybe-people-will-understand-pic...


A lot of people initially complained, for example, that they couldn't put icons on the desktop like they were used to.

Taking this as just one example: the point is, however, that you can have a folderview plasmoid on the desktop viewing the ~/Desktop folder ... and it then becomes the exact functional equivalent of "icons on the desktop".

See the picture, in the top left corner, where the green long-grass picture is:
http://plasma.kde.org/media/folderview_containment.png

What is that if not "icons on the desktop"?

I think the first comment has it down pat:
"I bet there are a lot of people out there going "OHHHHHH now I get it. I guess I shouldn't have been such an ass."

A lot of the so-called criticism is actually like that ... the critics have actually got it wrong. If their criticism was correct and KDE 4.1 actually behaved like they believed it did, then their might be a point, but a lot of the criticism is actually factually incorrect or otherwise misguided.

There might be some valid criticism out there, coming from some genuine people, but it is getting lost in the vast noise of "pretend criticism" coming from people who apparently haven't even run the KDE 4 code.

It is like: "make up a criticism, it doesn't have to have anything to do with the actual program, voice it loudly ... then complain bitterly that your criticism isn't being acted upon and that the developers are rude".

It is an apparent pretty intense smear campaign being conducted here ... smear against the software ... and it is apparently having a desired effect of raising the temper of the KDE developers.

If you have a valid criticism and your valid criticism is being lost in the noise ... then this just adds to the success the noisemakers are having, doesn't it?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[5]: great
by shapeshifter on Mon 16th Jun 2008 20:41 in reply to "RE[4]: great"
shapeshifter Member since:
2006-09-19

Just read these comments and you will get what I mean:

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/06/maybe-people-will-understand-pic...


What I get from the comments is:

1. You're a brown nosed ass kisser

2. KDE 4 was released with even the most basic functionality not finished.
Like desktop icons that save their position on the desktop between sessions and context menus.

3. Seeing how much is missing and that it takes a while to iron out bugs after the missing features are added, it'll take quite a few releases to call it stable release.

4. And from the screen shots, it looks like a bad attempt of a 6 year old trying to copy Vista look.
There was nothing wrong with the silver-blue theming from KDE 3.5.x so why the sudden change to this black, Vista like crap.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[4]: great
by Morty on Mon 16th Jun 2008 12:11 in reply to "RE[3]: great"
Morty Member since:
2005-07-06

Writing off potential "customers" whom are interested in your project and have questions, concerns and/or suggestions as "poisonous people" is not a good strategy in my book.


This is obviously not true since the KDE developer does not do this, they listen and repy to valid questions, concerns and/or suggestions.

The clue here is valid critisism. Raising again and again the same complaints and issues that have been ansvered and explained before on numourus occastions, and in many cases shown to be invalid, are not usefull in any way. And being louder does not change the facts.

When this is beeing done repeadetly by the same vocal critics. They even continue after their complaint has been shown invalid, and in many cases turns to personel attacks and insults. Labeling them as "poisonous people" are very accurate.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[5]: great
by lemur2 on Mon 16th Jun 2008 12:34 in reply to "RE[4]: great"
lemur2 Member since:
2007-02-17

"Writing off potential "customers" whom are interested in your project and have questions, concerns and/or suggestions as "poisonous people" is not a good strategy in my book.


This is obviously not true since the KDE developer does not do this, they listen and repy to valid questions, concerns and/or suggestions.

The clue here is valid critisism. Raising again and again the same complaints and issues that have been ansvered and explained before on numourus occastions, and in many cases shown to be invalid, are not usefull in any way. And being louder does not change the facts.

When this is beeing done repeadetly by the same vocal critics. They even continue after their complaint has been shown invalid, and in many cases turns to personel attacks and insults. Labeling them as "poisonous people" are very accurate.
"

Hear hear.

Spot on.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: great
by tyrione on Tue 17th Jun 2008 21:44 in reply to "RE[4]: great"
tyrione Member since:
2005-11-21

"Writing off potential "customers" whom are interested in your project and have questions, concerns and/or suggestions as "poisonous people" is not a good strategy in my book.


This is obviously not true since the KDE developer does not do this, they listen and repy to valid questions, concerns and/or suggestions.

The clue here is valid critisism. Raising again and again the same complaints and issues that have been ansvered and explained before on numourus occastions, and in many cases shown to be invalid, are not usefull in any way. And being louder does not change the facts.

When this is beeing done repeadetly by the same vocal critics. They even continue after their complaint has been shown invalid, and in many cases turns to personel attacks and insults. Labeling them as "poisonous people" are very accurate.
"

Define, valid.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: great
by _txf_ on Mon 16th Jun 2008 17:48 in reply to "RE[3]: great"
_txf_ Member since:
2008-03-17

It's one thing if potential customers have an open mind and are willing to be convinced, or be satisfied with anything less than "I DEMAND FEATURE X or else kde4 sucks".

These people are poisonous not because they are potential customers, more becasue they are positively hostile to anything that does not suit their particular desires.

Note that there are lots of people that had gennuine queries and had constructive criticism, or didn't go on a rampage when they were told feature x is not in kde4.1

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[4]: great
by StephenBeDoper on Tue 17th Jun 2008 05:18 in reply to "RE[3]: great"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Writing off potential "customers" whom are interested in your project and have questions, concerns and/or suggestions as "poisonous people" is not a good strategy in my book. On the whole 5 vocal critics will give you far more useful (if perhaps a bit loud) feedback than 50 fawning fanboys

Not all criticisms are equal. Insightful, well-reasoned critiques should not be ignored (of course). But if someone is just indulging in strident whining, why make any attempt to accommodate them? Especially since (IME) the most strident are usually the least-informed.

Reply Parent Score: 3