Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 25th Jun 2008 04:58 UTC, submitted by google_ninja
Windows We already know some of the directions Windows 7 will be exploring: a system-wide multitouch user interface framework, a focus on performance, all while building on top of the groundwork Windows Vista has laid out. While off-hand remarks have been made concerning the operating system's release date, it appears Microsoft now formalised the release date of Windows 7.
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Lacking direction
by kaiwai on Wed 25th Jun 2008 10:09 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

1) Windows Vista was released with a mountain of new api's, and yet, not a single bundled application takes advantage of these new apis. Why are components within Windows still using widget kits from circa win 3.1 for instance - anyone notice that Windows 3.1 dialogue in the font add/remove?

This is a symptom of a bigger problem, and Microsoft's unwillingness to throw things out. They seem to be like a compulsive hoarder who claims that 'one day I might need it' but reality is, that 'one day' never actually comes.

This then rolls onto Microsoft complaining that software and hardware drivers aren't coming out faster enough; again, the role of the operating system vendor is that of leadership - how can one take the operating system company seriously when it refuses to use the new API's itself for its own applications.

2) Its the small things that count. Bill Gates seems to be off on flights of fancy whilst ignoring it is the little things that make a desktop pleasant. Take Mac OS X and KDE, for example - spell checking everywhere. A decent command line and file system structure for the 21st century rather than the hobbled together DOS paradigm Microsoft is still hugging onto like a life raft.

3) Issue every programmer with a Pentium III with 512MB RAM; their objective should be to get it running smoothly on that. Stop showering your programmers with luxury. Maybe if they saw their application on a woefully under powered machine, and had to use those machines on a daily basis - it would give them a greater appreciation for optimising code.

** Side note, in all honesty, I would give Windows a second chance, but it would require a major overhaul for me to do so. I have nothing against Microsoft, but what I don't like is Windows, and the constricted nature of it when it comes to using the command line, or really bone head stupid ideas such as, in the case of Windows Messenger Live, not possible to change preferences unless logged in.

Edited 2008-06-25 10:12 UTC

Reply Score: 5

RE: Lacking direction
by melkor on Wed 25th Jun 2008 10:32 in reply to "Lacking direction"
melkor Member since:
2006-12-16

A good operating system should not require you to use the command line. Period.

KDE isn't perfect, whilst I like KDE, it's UI can, and needs to be, improved upon.

It does seem fashionable to be a Microsoft basher these days.

Dave

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Lacking direction
by mallard on Wed 25th Jun 2008 12:04 in reply to "RE: Lacking direction"
mallard Member since:
2006-01-06

A good operating system should not require you to use the command line. Period.


That's no excuse for having a poor command line. Just because you are not required to use it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there or that it shouldn't be useful.

Look at Mac OS X. No "normal" user need never touch the command line, but for those who want to there is a fully featured bash shell with useful apple-specific functionality.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Lacking direction
by Flatland_Spider on Wed 25th Jun 2008 13:41 in reply to "RE: Lacking direction"
Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

It does seem fashionable to be a Microsoft basher these days.


That's been fashionable for at least a decade. ;) Ah, the good old days of BeOS, OS2, Linux kernel 2.x, Win9x, NT 4, and others.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Lacking direction
by psychicist on Wed 25th Jun 2008 15:44 in reply to "RE: Lacking direction"
psychicist Member since:
2007-01-27

Needing or not needing a command line doesn't have anything to do with being a good operating system or not. Free operating systems do away with the command line for general use, although I admit that its necessity for configuration purposes could be decreased even more, but work in that area is being done.

Most of what kaiwai has said consists of genuine criticism of the way Windows has been developing over the years from his point of view, although he could have uttered that more gently, but we all know that diplomacy isn't one of his strong points.

Your only reaction seems to be that he's bashing Windows, even though he had been using Vista for months before deciding enough was enough and going to Mac OS X and Solaris. Still he keeps his chances for future Windows usage open, what more do you want?

As far as I have seen from my limited exposure to pre-installed Windows Vista, it isn't that bad an operating system, but also nothing special. Considering the technical possibilities and limitations of the Windows computing paradigm, it doesn't look as bad as you can read in multiple places on the internet including OSNews.

Hardware manufacturers seem to have dropped the ball though with respect to having drivers available at or soon after its launch, a situation that is only now slightly improving. Seeing that Windows 7 builds upon this foundation, there could be some hope for its users that the problems that occurred going from Windows XP to Vista, won't happen this time.

The point about having developers issued older hardware with limited amounts of memory is particularly interesting to me and I agree completely.

I have access to multi-ghz, multicore systems with many gigabytes of memory, but have slower systems around (Pentium III 1 GHz, G4 400 MHz, UltraSPARC II 400 MHz and Loongson 2E 670 MHz) for development purposes and to test if the latest GNU/Linux operating system and associated free software run well enough on those compared to their performance on the greatest x86 hardware available to me.

Even if that is too much hassle for Microsoft in general and the Windows developers in particular, there are still projects such as the free (L)GPL'd QEMU and proprietary products that do the same thing (which are probably more palatable to the company for licensing reasons), in that they can virtualise or simulate a slower system on top of more modern hardware.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Lacking direction
by bannor99 on Wed 25th Jun 2008 19:29 in reply to "RE: Lacking direction"
bannor99 Member since:
2005-09-15

A good operating system should not require you to use the command line. Period.


That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.
I not a great lover of the command line but there are
times ( and I'm referring to using Windows here )
when I prefer to use it because the dialog boxes / property sheets are so tedious that they are more hindrance than help.

If there is no reason for the command line then do away with it rather than implementing it shittily.

PERIOD.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Lacking direction
by kaiwai on Thu 26th Jun 2008 00:54 in reply to "RE: Lacking direction"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

A good operating system should not require you to use the command line. Period.


I never said that everything should be done via command line; I implicitly stated that I wantd the UI and command line to be equal in attention which Microsoft developers give it. How you lept from what I said, an improved command line, and then claiming I said everything should be done via command line - I can work out how you made basically you did a strawman - a misrepresentation of what I said.

I don't expect a reply. Its typical around here to 'comment' and 'run' rather than enter into some sort of conversation.

KDE isn't perfect, whilst I like KDE, it's UI can, and needs to be, improved upon.


Again, I never said it was perfect. You are replying to ME, address the issues *I* raised. If you want to create a whole new line of conversation, then create new thread.

It does seem fashionable to be a Microsoft basher these days.


And it seems fashionable for people like you to parade around claiming to be the 'impartial observer'. Who is bashing Microsoft?

I'm sorry, as soon as you use the words 'hater' and 'basher' and other pejoratives, you've lost the argument before you even have started. So please, don't even try to argue your case until you drop those immature and pathetically childish words which have the equivalence of "stop being so mean to me!"

Edited 2008-06-26 00:56 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Lacking direction
by helf on Wed 25th Jun 2008 14:21 in reply to "Lacking direction"
helf Member since:
2005-07-06

Bill Gates has almost NO direct involvement in Windows/MS anymore. It seems he couldn't care less about this crap. He made his billions, now he can go off on his "flights of fancy" anytime he wants. He deserves it ;)

Too bad he gave the CEO position to the walking, talking, douche that is ballmer...

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Lacking direction
by Flatland_Spider on Wed 25th Jun 2008 14:32 in reply to "Lacking direction"
Flatland_Spider Member since:
2006-09-01

You're pretty much on point, to borrow a phrase from another forum.

2) Attention to detail is not a strong point MS. Attention to detail really is the mark of quality. It shows the company loves their product, and has an expertise in their field. Apple excels at this, and they are rewarded with legions of fanbois and increasing market share.

The Windows command line was never updated to fit into the object oriented nature of Windows. Powershell is a rewrite of the Windows command line that solves the problem. People disparage Powershell for being more of a scripting language then command line, but that's kind of the point.

I still don't see why a user needs to see the file structure anyway. Administration and repair sure, but day to day operations, not so much. I should be able to set rules, and my files would get sorted out automatically.

3) When I hear people say that their 4 socket, 16 processor, 100 GB of RAM, quad SLi desktop will be the norm someday, it makes me want to throttle them. That's not what I have now, it's not what most people I know currently have, and I don't know anyone who is thinking about upgrading to that.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Lacking direction
by google_ninja on Wed 25th Jun 2008 17:46 in reply to "Lacking direction"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

I agree with almost everything you said there kaiwai. I would point you to powershell though for a modern commandline, basically bash taken to the next level.

I also disagree with the whole ancient hardware thing. Developers are currently NOT writing multithreaded code, and we are getting more and more cores in our cpus as time goes on. As it stands now, quad cores are going to be a complete waste, since devs do not take advantage of parallel processing.

Developers should all be on quad core NUMA machines ;)

Edited 2008-06-25 17:51 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Lacking direction
by mickrussom on Wed 25th Jun 2008 22:14 in reply to "Lacking direction"
mickrussom Member since:
2006-05-13

This is a symptom of a bigger problem, and Microsoft's unwillingness to throw things out. They seem to be like a compulsive hoarder who claims that 'one day I might need it' but reality is, that 'one day' never actually comes.

Wrong. Not everyone wants to buy all new software when the old software works, and quite well at that.

If MSFT "throws" stuff out, Like EAX and Direct Sound 3d/2d, everyone just gets pissed.

They used to put a gun to developers head to use these APIs, and now they deprecate them. Lame, untenable, expensive and wrong.

Why should WINE be more compatible with legacy stuff than microsoft's new OS?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Lacking direction
by kaiwai on Thu 26th Jun 2008 01:13 in reply to "RE: Lacking direction"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Wrong. Not everyone wants to buy all new software when the old software works, and quite well at that.

If MSFT "throws" stuff out, Like EAX and Direct Sound 3d/2d, everyone just gets pissed.


Ah yes typical hyperbole of 'everyone just ges pissed' - who is this 'everyone'? when I look through the complaints; sure, people are pissed off about an application not working, but the number one complain *I* have seen from people is the crap performance then followed by crap hardware support and the lack of delivery of all the promises that were hyped up for 5 years!

There is a fine line between supporting software that is 3 years old (from 2005) and expecting Microsoft so support applications from Windows 3.1 as some people expect.

Oh, and I always love when people ćompare' Windows with wine - it exposes the individuals complete lack of understanding of software development - it truly does. Unless you have a clue in that area, please, don't voice your opinion - its frustrating having to read such nonsense.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: Lacking direction
by StephenBeDoper on Thu 26th Jun 2008 20:54 in reply to "Lacking direction"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

3) Issue every programmer with a Pentium III with 512MB RAM; their objective should be to get it running smoothly on that.


++
I'd also add Paul Lutus' solution: force programmers to *use* the software they write.

Reply Parent Score: 2