Linked by David Adams on Wed 2nd Jul 2008 16:11 UTC, submitted by elsewhere
KDE "After the recent release KDE 4.1 beta 2 and openSUSE 11 with KDE 4.0.4, some critics have been especially vocal in expressing their displeasure with the KDE 4 user interface paradigms. The debate has grown increasingly caustic as critics and supporters engage in a war of words over the technology. The controversy has escalated to the point where some users are now advocating a fork in order to move forward the old KDE 3.5 UI paradigms. As an observer who has closely studied each new release of KDE 4, I'm convinced that the fork rhetoric is an absurdly unproductive direction for this debate."
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RE: Maybe it does need a fork?
by aseigo on Wed 2nd Jul 2008 22:07 UTC in reply to "Maybe it does need a fork?"
aseigo
Member since:
2005-07-06

but I don't see KDE4 competing with KDE3.5 as a professional desktop environment anytime soon.


remember that statement.

it doesn't matter how pretty a panel looks if you can't move the applets it contains. That issue has been mostly fixed now, but it's indicative of the thinking and priorities behind KDE4.


the priorities in this case were: make the low level things work first, then work our way up the stack. your suggested approach would have advocated "apply a hack on top of it now!". not only does this waste effort in the long run, it risks the quality of the codebase signficantly.

moreover, downstreams came up with a patch for that just fine in the meantime, without hobbling upstream development.

so we traded 6 months of no applet moving on the panel for years of solid usage in the future.

i don't like short term thinking.

Maybe the people with the KDE4 'vision' are actually way out of touch with their users?


i probably know more about kde's users than you ever will. not only am i user of kde, but over the years i've met and talked with literally 1000s of them. i've also participated in or digested the results of various studies done with our user base.

But if you think you know better, don't just talk about a fork, hurry up and do it. The OS world is full of armchair programmers who are full of complaints but can't bring themselves to contribute.


describes most of humanity in most endeavors, it seems.

Reply Parent Score: 7

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

"i probably know more about kde's users than you ever will. not only am i user of kde, but over the years i've met and talked with literally 1000s of them. i've also participated in or digested the results of various studies done with our user base."

Mr Seigo, the users you meet or the one who take part in studies are most likely the "geeky" ones.

But have you done "the granny test"?

Seriously now, talking about "ordinary" users: my sister found herself immediately at ease with KDE3 (July 2004).
When she comes here I'll ask her if she feels at ease with KDE4.
I can also ask friends, most Windows users recently converted to Ubuntu.
Or people who have never seen Linux before, that is IMO the best test.

Reply Parent Score: 3

aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

Mr Seigo,


just "Aaron" please. formality is unnecessary (and for me, unwanted) here.

the users you meet or the one who take part in studies are most likely the "geeky" ones.


elementary school children, office workers, government workers, first time home users ... no, i'm not quite so myopic to make the classic, and elementary, mistake of building profiles on any one group of users. i do meet a lot of geek users, too; they are an important segment of the user base. they are hardly the only significant group i meet with, talk with or study, however.

Reply Parent Score: 3

IkeKrull Member since:
2006-01-24

Well, you just keep doing what youre doing - Denying theres a problem, insisting the long term goals outweigh the short term needs of the users, that everything will be fine.

That 6+ months of a complete lack of basic, and hugely visible functionality is somehow not an issue.

That you know better than everyone else, and that nobody elses opinion means sh*t.

Whatever, just keep doing what youre doing. You've made KDE4 a great success so far.

Reply Parent Score: 1

asupcb Member since:
2005-11-10

If the current release (or even any future release for that matter) does not offer functionality that you consider vital either don't use the software that release, find other software/systems that do what you want, or help advance the project through coding (as it is open source) or in other ways even if you can't code such as writing docs, doing language translations, or even news releases.

I feel bad for people who update their distro and don't realize it using KDE 4.x and it does not have the functionality they desire in that release but normally such things are only problems for bleeding edge distros in which case you should know what you are getting yourself into. Ubuntu made a bad choice, IMO, in choosing KDE 4.0.x for Kubuntu because KDE 4 is not yet ready for the average user (but it will by July for many and will be ready for everyone by next July 09). If your distro makes poor decisions for your usage patterns then perhaps you should consider another more conservative distro such as CENT OS or RHEL or Novell's Enterprise offerings. It would surprise me if they made the move before KDE 4.2 or even 4.3 due to their particular emphasis on stability and instead stick with the older 3.5.x series. Who knows when Debian will move over their stable release to KDE 4.x or even testing for that matter?

KDE 3.5 is still quite usable. I mean I run Windows XP at home on a 6-year old computer (although the XP install is newer) and it works fine for me despite its age of 7 years after initial release and 4 or 5 since the last major update (SP2).

People forget that KDE 4 is one of the most ambitious software projects, open or closed source. This is the first major rewrite of KDE since 2.0 and many people did not upgrade to it until 2.2 and then many held out the upgrade to KDE 3 until 3.2. It's fine to wait it out a little. Also the KDE devs made clear that this release was primarily for developers and advanced users. Perhaps they should have put a warning label on it labeling it for "developers and advanced users only."

I'll admit I was one of the ones highly critical of the decision to release KDE 4.0 in January but frankly it was the KDE devs decision as it is their software project and I'm just an occasional user (until I get my new computer then my current one will be running a KDE 4 desktop). I look forward to what the KDE 4 series will bring us.

Reply Parent Score: 3

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

That you know better than everyone else, and that nobody elses opinion means sh*t.


Offer constructive criticism, and you'll get constructive feedback. All you've done is falsely assumed that your personal opinion applies to the general userbase, as opposed to being polarized with the powerusers that tend to post on online forums, or blogs, or whatnot, and are personalizing the situation.

Hell, I've gotten so sick of this KDE4-is-so-bad discussion, that I spent two days at work cajolling some of my non-linux experienced co-workers to use my laptop for 20 minutes, poking at Konqueror or whatnot, just to see if there was something I was blatantly missing. They were quite impressed with it, in that they expected it to be something like a text-based DOS. Of course, I didn't give them 3.5.9 or Gnome to compare it to, but that's kind of the point. Without a frame of reference (other than Windows), they weren't biased, and these are the same people that may very likely wind up running Amarok or kmahjjongg on their Windows systems at home.

You brought up the example of E17, and while I don't agree with the context in which you used it, I think it's a perfect of example of how a project goes stale when people, whether developers or users, have some pre-determined measure of total perfection before it can be released. At some point you have to let it leave the nest and live in the real world.

KDE4 needs to grow if it is going to thrive, and in order to grow, it needs to live. It can't sit in SVN for an indefinite amount of time until the posters on the dot and other places are in some sort of unanimous consensus that it is ready, because that point will never happen.

And as for Aaron's opinions, at least he articulates them. Agree with them or disagree with them, but at least he explains them. Which is more that can be said for the majority of the comments against. Plasma was outlined something like two or three years ago. It's well on track to becoming what was visualized. There was ample time for discussion and whatnot.

And frankly, as someone that has been following KDE4 development since then, I'm too excited by the future possibilities to want to see the devs waste time in hacking and porting hairy code that was poorly maintained simply to present the facade of the DE I was hoping to move from. I'm happy to see kdesktop and kicker die, in as much as the phoneix needs to burn in a pyre before it can be reborn as something greater.

Anybody that talks about "users" in the context of KDE4 failings is generally not counting my opinion, or others like me. Just selectively exerting their own.

Whatever, just keep doing what youre doing. You've made KDE4 a great success so far.


Whole-heartedly agree.

Edited 2008-07-03 05:22 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 6

aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

That 6+ months of a complete lack of basic, and hugely visible functionality is somehow not an issue.


sorry, the last 6 months have seen *insane* amounts of progress.

That you know better than everyone else, and that nobody elses opinion means sh*t.


no, not everyone else's opinions, just your opinion (and those like it). why? because it's uninformed and delivered in the most uncivil manner possible. if you want me to take your opinion into consideration, then make it a well researched one and then speak to me like you would a person deserving of common respect.

imagine going to a friend, a manager, a professor, etc. and delivering an uninformed opinion with words such as the above. i doubt they'd receive it well, and you wouldn't deserve more.

Reply Parent Score: 4