Linked by Eugenia Loli on Mon 19th Sep 2005 17:02 UTC, submitted by Eli M. Dow
Mono Project Build applications for Linux while maintaining cross-platform capabilities using .NET languages.
Thread beginning with comment 33595
To read all comments associated with this story, please click here.
zealotry?
by on Mon 19th Sep 2005 20:00 UTC

Member since:

ok, first of all, read this http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono.

Seth is one of the top gnome guys, and one of the redhat engineers. That is his reasoning on why there are problems with mono in a legal sense, and gives a very compelling reason not to let it become an official gnome dependancy.

The only thing that shakes his argument is an email by a .net engineer in a non official context on a non official mailing list. And yet, miguel and co. writes off *any* hesitation as zealotry, and huge amounts of people who have been drinking the ms hype (.net isnt anywhere near as revolutionary as its made out to be, and there are plenty of more mature, crossplatform RADs out there that you can develop on). Seth offers some compelling arguments that i dont think are even remotely zealotous, and i have yet to see any counter points that address these issues. and quite frankly, im a tad annoyed that all it takes to be marked as zealotous nowadays is to not stand with ms, and someone to point a fingure.

1. historically, ms hasnt been one to play fair
2. historically, ms doesnt stay consistant
3. ms has explicitly use their patents against oss
4. ecma is not ANSI, you retain IP ownership, and are allowed to charge a "reasonable" royalty. a royalty of 0.0000001$ is more then reasonable, and makes mono gpl incompatible. i think it would be prudent to have more then a non official email on a non official mailing list from ms before trusting they will not do this. yet that is what the mono project is telling us.
5. it isnt in ms' best interest to exploit any of this until the day when it needs a weapon against gnome.
6. microsoft has a long history of shifty, anti-competitive behavior. why put a (potential) weapon in their hands when we dont need to?

saying something is zealotry doesnt make it so. i would like to hear a more cohearent argument from some mono guys that actually adresses these issues, rather then implying rabid anti-ms behavior. for the record, i use windows every day at work to develop on a propriatary platform. i know c#, mono is installed on my system and i use many mono apps. mono as a technology is fantastic, and i have nothing but respect for miguel and the rest of the mono team. we need something like this in gnome, but i dont think its a good idea to use this specific platform, and i have yet to hear a compelling arguments that stand up to what seth (and to a lesser extent, havoc) were talking about.

Reply Score: 5

RE: zealotry?
by on Mon 19th Sep 2005 20:22 in reply to "zealotry?"
Member since:

Miguel, since you are reading this (and offering corrections to the article), why don't you address these issues?

And preemptively, no your mono FAQ does not address these issues.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE: zealotry?
by on Mon 19th Sep 2005 20:24 in reply to "zealotry?"
Member since:

The problem I have with the arguments that people make against Mono is that they're all hypothetical. The whole argument is "What if Microsoft sometime in the distant future does..."?

It's like the Open Source communities drive to have an Open Source implementation of Java. When you ask why, the whole argument is "Sure, Java is free now (as in free beer), but what if in the future Sun decides to..."?

It's all based on some hypothetical situation that may never happen.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: zealotry?
by Jamie on Mon 19th Sep 2005 23:04 in reply to "zealotry?"
Jamie Member since:
2005-07-06

If only I could get a penny every time somebody mentioned Seth's blog post in a mono related article then I would be a rich man!

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: zealotry?
by on Tue 20th Sep 2005 03:11 in reply to "RE: zealotry?"
Member since:

"If only I could get a penny every time somebody mentioned Seth's blog post in a mono related article then I would be a rich man!"

If only I could have a million dollars for every time someone convincingly refuted Seth's blog post in a mono related article, then I would be a rich man! Wait, no, I wouldn't.

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE: zealotry?
by on Tue 20th Sep 2005 00:59 in reply to "zealotry?"
Member since:

If you think you are smart enough, then please bring the entire discussion links. Bringing Seth's comments only, doesn't help at all. Or maybe you didn't even try to read the responses from Mono community?

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[2]: zealotry?
by on Tue 20th Sep 2005 01:29 in reply to "RE: zealotry?"
Member since:

the responses from the mono community (for the most part) is that redhat are zealots/pawns of sun. their response to the ecma royalties thing is that a ms engineer posted an email on some mailing list saying they wouldnt. given the history of microsoft when dealing with their competition, even if ms lawyers came out and said that they would never charge royalties, people should still be warey. hell, we have yet to hear novells lawyers say that its all good, let alone ms. really, all we have is miguel saying "dont worry about it".

as for patent infringement, there are cute diagrams about what is under microsoft patent, and what is under ECMA, again not mentioning that even the ECMA stuff can be used against us. ECMA allows the company to retain IP ownership, it isnt the same thing as ANSI, and the response has been "well, its a standard".

the reason the seth post comes up again and again is that we have yet to see a miguel post that addresses the points he brings up. he tends to say that redhats refusal to adopt mono is plain old anti-microsoft hatred, that .net is really good tech, and everyone nods sagely, because everyone knows how zealotous those free software nuts are. this bugs me, seth has a very good argument that not only has yet to be addressed, but is dismissed left right and center.

dont get me wrong, im a big fan of .net, i feel its java++ (or will be eventually once the platform matures more), and that mono itself is an extremely impressive accomplishment. i have nothing but respect for miguel, anyone who will take an interview at ms as a platform to evangelise free software will become a geek hero to me, for that reason alone. my problem isnt with mono, its with the dismissal of perfectly lucid and valid arguments as "Zealotous", and being ignored.

Reply Parent Score: 1