Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 28th Feb 2009 11:47 UTC
Apple A few days ago, Apple surprised everyone by releasing the first beta of Safari 4, the company's latest version of their WebKit browser. While I generally love Safari on the Mac (my browser of choice on that side of the fence), I've never felt as comfortable with it on the Windows side of things. In any case, this latest beta has made a very bold move in the interface department, and I'm sad to say that it's not for the better. Let me explain where it went wrong for Apple.
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What?
by Hakime on Sat 28th Feb 2009 15:16 UTC
Hakime
Member since:
2005-11-16

"Let me explain where it went wrong for Apple."

Sure you better now than Apple when it comes to software design.

"Chrome, the browser controls have become part of the web page, which from a web application perspective makes perfect sense: the browser buttons and address bar, in essence, are part of the web application. In other words, each tab in Chrome is an "application", one stacked atop another. "

That makes zero sense, what are you talking about?

"This design decision is something I expect from a 6 year old who writes his fist tabbed text editor - not from a company that prides itself on UI design."

Oh really, why don't you stop your arrogance? Did you ever design a software or a user interface? The answer is no, so what makes you think that you can tell you know better than some professionals with such arrogance? You don't write software, so you would not be better than a 6 year old in doing it, would you?

Let me get it straight. You are neither a software expert nor a professional in designing user interface nor even a software evangelist. You have absolutely no record on software UI design and engineering, so why are you pretending that you know about it? In other words, this means that when you allow yourself to judge about someone else work on software, please have the humility to do it in accordance to your competence.

That's ok to give your point of view, given that it is well balanced. Stop to make it sound that all you are saying is correct and necessary what everyone should think, again given your little professional competence in the matter. I do believe that there are good and bad aspects on this design (and come one trying to say that Chrome makes it better is totally stupid as the same fundamental problems arise with Chrome), but that should be said, not your collection of non-sense. Also you are certainly not old enough to
have such arrogance towards some people who certainly were coding when you did not realize that you were on Earth yet.

Here is a good review of the feature which professionally written

http://www.macworld.com/article/139026/2009/02/safari4tabs.html

Learn!!!!!


"The "3D" effect on the tabtitlebar is too overdone, giving me the strange sensation that my monitor is a 10km abyss. Taking the right-hand window controls section into account (which is lower down in the abyss than the active tab), as well as the fact that even if you have ten million tabs, the deepest tab still has the same effect as the one just below the active one, and Apple's tabtitlebar gives me the feeling I'm looking at an M.C. Escher sketch."

Crap, does not make any sense, you are saying nothing that makes your argument to be considered. Why the 3D effect should change when you have more tabs? Making it lighter would render the tab difficult to locate among a lot of them and it would certainly be not consistent.

"That's not all, though. Because Apple wanted the tabs to make up the titlebar, they had to ditch this well-established concept of spatial memory, making tabs change size continiously, since even if you have one tab, it needs to be wide enough to cover the entire titlebar. This makes the resize handle and tab title move around like crazy."

What? Read yourself..... Again you fail to explain what you mean by spatial memory, spatial memory of what, tab title, location, content, what? And why it does not wok on this design. You are just expressing your personal feeling without to explain why the implementation is flawed by design. And by the way, tabs size has always change as you add them, that's not new in this design albeit being more obvious. But is it bad? Couldn't we argue that such behavior gives more feedback on what it is going on to the user? And what is the resize handle you are talking about? The handle does not serve for resizing the tab, but only to move it. And why you bother that they move, of course they move as tabs are added, and what? They belong to each tab, so the user does not need to follow their displacement every time he/she adds a tab.

Also the handle for tabs in background only appears when you move your mouse over it, so how it moves does not matter because the user anyway sees what he/she has on the active tab.

"To me, it seems like Apple had heard that "Chrome has tabs on top", but instead of just being honest and admitting that Google got it right, they set a goal for themselves to make as many arbitrary and useless changes as possible so they could still claim they were innovating."

You are bitching now... keep going.

"ll these changes resulted in this botched and confusing tabtitlebar abomination that not only looks horribly out of place on both Mac OS X and Windows, but is also a functional disaster."

Functional disaster, why? All the crap that you wrote does not give any credit to such a statement.

"I hope Apple's Safari engineers recover from this monumental design frak-up quickly, because if this stays the way it is, I won't be using Safari on my Mac anymore. Which is a shame, since Safari 4 comes packed with lots of other interesting and useful features. I also like the effort to make Safari moe native on Windows, but it's two steps forward, ten steps back."

Yeah talk about engineers, you are not one, so you purely understand what you trying to talk about. Give yourself some air, come back to Earth, read your own personal description (http://www.osnews.com/user/uid:5/), you are claiming to be/become a journalist (well i try to keep myself laughing for this one too but anyway), not a software engineer nor a UI designer.

Again that's fine to express what you dislike in something, but don't make it as you were absolutely right in your argument and don't do it without a properly balanced argumentation.


By the way what a real UI designer thinks about Safari 4?

http://blog.cocoia.com/2009/02/24/safari-4-ui-breakdown/

Read it and don't pretend that you know better than him.

Edited 2009-02-28 15:21 UTC

Reply Score: 0

RE: What?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 28th Feb 2009 15:34 in reply to "What?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Can you, for once, make a point in plain English, as well as without any insults or nasty words? I cannot possibly take you serious this way. I'm sorry.

I did find that link of yours interesting. I don't think you read it very well, because the author actually agreed with me about the tabs. Edit: In fact, BOTH of your links agree with my position, and bring forward similar arguments! Did you really read those links, or what?!?

But this is all trivial compared to the dramatic changes to tabs. Having tabs at the top is a very logical thing to do; tabs do take precedence over other controls, and are relevant at the top; but two things are possibly confusing; having no title bar to drag the window around with, which you are used to, and the ‘travel time’ of bringing your cursor to the top of the window to switch tabs is greater. I found it uncomfortable at first; I’d like to know what you think. I think it’ll grow on me, though.


What's interesting is that that link of yours focusses on the new functionality in Safari 4, not the UI per se. And yes, I do consider myself knowledgable on this subject. I've spent a hell of a lot of time reading, studying, and writing about UI design.

No, I'm not claiming that I'm "right", or that my opinion is all that matters. That's why this is an editorial - as in, a personal opinion. I suggest that for your next comment, you try to come up with counterarguments, in understandable English, without insults or nasty words.

Then we'll see if you actually have anything to contribute. Because right now, you're just flying insults around.

Edited 2009-02-28 15:37 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: What?
by mrhasbean on Sun 1st Mar 2009 00:53 in reply to "RE: What?"
mrhasbean Member since:
2006-04-03

No, I'm not claiming that I'm "right", or that my opinion is all that matters.


"Let me explain where it went wrong for Apple."

O RLY!?

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: What?
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Sun 1st Mar 2009 05:13 in reply to "RE: What?"
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

Speaking of user interfaces, the parent that Thom was responding to was modded down to -1 which makes it less noticeable. But Thom's response was modded up making it more noticeable. The net effect on the UI made it seem as if Thom was replying to the post above the one he was. I re-read it over and over for a while to figure out what the heck Thom was reacting to.

Maybe Im crosseyed, or maybe just tired and have a form of post dsylexia not yet classified by scientists, but that's what I saw.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: What?
by axel on Sun 1st Mar 2009 23:03 in reply to "RE: What?"
axel Member since:
2006-02-04

And yes, I do consider myself knowledgable on this subject. I've spent a hell of a lot of time reading, studying, and writing about UI design.


While I'm not saying your wrong in this instance, usability is not a scholastic discipline, its a scientific discipline. Reading about usability only makes you knowledgeable about things which have already been studied, so unless you've got an empirical study on Safari's tabs your opinion on it isn't really any better than that of some one who doesn't have a usability hobby.
A couple of flaws in your "analysis" jumps out particularly: the idea that reordering tabs is an important enough behavior that it needs to be supported from anywhere on the tab (this is really the sort of thing that needs to be backed up) and the "10km abyss" effect, the inclusion of which assumes that it isn't isolated to yourself.

And yes, I do consider myself knowledgable on this subject. I've spent a hell of a lot of time ... writing about UI design.


This is an especially bizarre way of trying to give your opinions weight which isn't isolated to this thread either. You frequently link your usability terms articles as a way to argue your case. Let's think about that: you use your own opinions to prove your opinions.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: What?
by mxcl on Thu 5th Mar 2009 18:34 in reply to "RE: What?"
mxcl Member since:
2008-05-22

Thom, the saddest thing is how far OSNews has fallen that all these plonkers here agree with your rambling, moronic crap.

Edited 2009-03-05 18:35 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: What?
by Nelson on Sat 28th Feb 2009 15:56 in reply to "What?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Sure you better now than Apple when it comes to software design.


This is an article about User Experience. Who would know better about User Experience than..oh I don't know, a user?

The "Apple knows best" argument is silly when you think about the amount of people who use their program.

Perhaps they did some usability testing, maybe they put some of the best guys in the field on the product, but your sort of blanket statement is misleading at best.


That makes zero sense, what are you talking about?


Chrome puts the Tabs on Top as a UI overlay, as opposed to a weird frankenstein mashup of Tab and Title Bar.

If you look at Chrome on Vista, they extend the Glass into the Client Area, and overlay the tabs ontop. You still have a region which you can interact with in the form of a title bar. Tabs are tabs and the title bar is a title bar.


what makes you think that you can tell you know better than some professionals with such arrogance? You don't write software, so you would not be better than a 6 year old in doing it, would you?


First off, that's a logical fallacy. You can't flatly say that because X believes that Y is true, then Y has to be true.

It's ridiculous to think like that, what is so wrong about someone else forming their own opinion about a product, and writing an article on it?


Let me get it straight. You are neither a software expert nor a professional in designing user interface nor even a software evangelist. You have absolutely no record on software UI design and engineering, so why are you pretending that you know about it? In other words, this means that when you allow yourself to judge about someone else work on software, please have the humility to do it in accordance to your competence.


Again, he's the user. One of those who ultimately has to deal with the product on a day to day basis, if his opinion is to be rendered useless, then what is the point of even making a product like this available to the general public?

You're being incredibly dense.


I do believe that there are good and bad aspects on this design (and come one trying to say that Chrome makes it better is totally stupid as the same fundamental problems arise with Chrome), but that should be said, not your collection of non-sense. Also you are certainly not old enough to
have such arrogance towards some people who certainly were coding when you did not realize that you were on Earth yet.


Chrome does not suffer from such problems, at least not to the glaring, and in my opinion, embarassing extent that Safari 4 does.

You've said arrogance many times in your post, but the only one coming off as arrogant is you.

Crap, does not make any sense, you are saying nothing that makes your argument to be considered. Why the 3D effect should change when you have more tabs? Making it lighter would render the tab difficult to locate among a lot of them and it would certainly be not consistent.


For all the ranting you seem to do about UI design, you seem to be unable to grasp the concept of using color contrast to focus attention. The way Apple is doing it (At least on Windows) works, but it's not the best way to do it.



What? Read yourself..... Again you fail to explain what you mean by spatial memory, spatial memory of what, tab title, location, content, what?


He pretty clearly says that it's the size of the tabs.
You're rushing through his words and losing your objectivity.


And why it does not wok on this design. You are just expressing your personal feeling without to explain why the implementation is flawed by design.


Look up the concept of spatial memory, and muscle memory. Basically, it boils down to the user not having to constantly readjust where his mouse should go to.

If you have a stationary target, you are more efficient, but if you have a moving target, such as a variable sized tab, and to add ontop of that, additional variable targets such as the Close Button and Move Tab button, it further complicates interaction.


Couldn't we argue that such behavior gives more feedback on what it is going on to the user? And what is the resize handle you are talking about? The handle does not serve for resizing the tab, but only to move it. And why you bother that they move, of course they move as tabs are added, and what? They belong to each tab, so the user does not need to follow their displacement every time he/she adds a tab.


Sure you can, you can also argue that the moon is made of cheese. It does not make it a good argument.


Also the handle for tabs in background only appears when you move your mouse over it, so how it moves does not matter because the user anyway sees what he/she has on the active tab.


Doesn't really matter if the size of tabs are constantly changing. Safari definitely has the more erratic behavior when it comes to this, as opposed to every other browser.



By the way what a real UI designer thinks about Safari 4?

http://blog.cocoia.com/2009/02/24/safari-4-ui-breakdown/

Read it and don't pretend that you know better than him.


You mean, there's an article written by a person. An authoritive subject on a completely subjective matter? Irrelevant.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: What?
by dagw on Sat 28th Feb 2009 16:13 in reply to "RE: What?"
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

Again, he's the user.

Well no. He's _a_ user. One among millions, no more important or significant than most. There is no reason why his experience should be representative, or for his opinion to carry any absolute weight.

if his opinion is to be rendered useless

And that would be fine, had he presented his ideas as opinion. He doesn't. He makes absolutist statements leaving no room the concept of opinion. He is Right and Apple "got it wrong". Now that is certainly his prerogative and no doubt did it precisely to be provocative and generate comments, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be called on the inanity of his rant.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: What?
by mxcl on Thu 5th Mar 2009 18:50 in reply to "RE: What?"
mxcl Member since:
2008-05-22

This is an article about User Experience. Who would know better about User Experience than..oh I don't know, a user?


f--kING LOL. You guys are hilarious.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: What?
by fury on Sat 28th Feb 2009 18:51 in reply to "What?"
fury Member since:
2005-09-23

I feel stupider for reading your outlandishly long and horribly written attack on what was an article I enjoyed reading.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE: What?
by ansidotsys on Sat 28th Feb 2009 19:17 in reply to "What?"
ansidotsys Member since:
2008-08-15

While I certainly don't care to comment on the UI arguments as proposed by Hakime, I do agree with him in regards to the arrogance inherent in Thom's writing. The holier-than-thou attitude is readily apparent in many of his articles, especially those on those UI design. At the very least, it is annoying. Writing on subjects such as OS and UI design can be done in a manner which is informative and without being arrogant.

Eugenia's article, for the most part, are very informative and without the presence of arrogance as exhibit by Thom's writing. In any case, it's a minor issue which is only, to put it simply, annoying.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE: What?
by StephenBeDoper on Mon 2nd Mar 2009 02:20 in reply to "What?"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

After the 12th paragraph, I started getting light-headed, and had to stop and set up a base camp to rest while the Sherpas went ahead to scout out the rest of the post. But after a long nap and some serious re-hydration, I was able to push through and finish my ascent. I don’t know that I’ve ever been more proud of myself.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: What?
by mxcl on Thu 5th Mar 2009 18:32 in reply to "What?"
mxcl Member since:
2008-05-22

Seriously, well said.

I like reading usability reviews, but not from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Especially when they think they do. And even more especially when they are so unnecessarily sensationalist.

Reply Parent Score: 1