Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 16:12 UTC, submitted by Rahul
Gnome Only a few days ago, we ran an article on the future of KDE and GNOME, and which of the two had the brighter future based on their developmental processes. Barely has that discussion ended, or the GNOME engineering team comes with a pretty daunting plan to introduce a fairly massive reworking of the GNOME interface for GNOME 3.0 (2.30). Read on for the details.
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you know what sucks?
by superstoned on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 17:13 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

You know what is sad? Reading the page http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Features you can only conclude there is some great potential there. Then moving on, you see they created some gross hacks and are building it all from scratch. While there is a fully free, LGPL framework out there, which has been in development for over 2 years now, and is build to do specifically this: recreate the desktop experience in a new way. Sure, it's KDE technology, but who cares? They can work with it in javascript, python, ruby, C# or a mix of those - so it can't be the C++ they hate.

So what is the sodding argument to re-invent the wheel (*poorly*) again? They could have been finished by now, damnit, and the FOSS desktop would actually be innovative NOW and have a chance against the big boys. But no, they rather waste their time building upon a pile of dogshit.

Sorry that I'm so harsh but it is frustrating. PPL with excellent ideas and design capabilities choosing crappy technology for political reasons, letting their work go to waste. Blegh. The FOSS desktop could've been so much better.

Reply Score: 8

RE: you know what sucks?
by darknexus on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 17:17 in reply to "you know what sucks?"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

Yes, I know what sucks. Everyone saying "GNOME should just use KDE this, ditch that in favor of KDE framework." Well, if they did that, we wouldn't have much variety now would we? No chance for innovation, for new ideas. Guys, KDE is not the end all be all.

Reply Parent Score: 10

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by phoenix on Fri 3rd Apr 2009 06:34 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Yes, I know what sucks. Everyone saying "GNOME should just use KDE this, ditch that in favor of KDE framework." Well, if they did that, we wouldn't have much variety now would we? No chance for innovation, for new ideas. Guys, KDE is not the end all be all.


Interesting how the KDE/QT guys don't have (m)any problems with using GNOME/GTK technologies in the name of interoperabilty (dbus in place of dcop, using the glib event loop in qt, and there was another big one I can't recall atm), yet when someone suggests that GNOME/GTK use a KDE/QT technology it's like they're asking GNOME devs to sacrifice virgins to the volcano gods.

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by superstoned on Fri 3rd Apr 2009 10:48 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I'm not saying the gnome devs should stop working on Gnome technology. I'm just saying they should think about using the right tool for the right job.

Sharing lower-level technology saves time for actual innovation. Duplication isn't good for innovation - if you need something and it's available, use it, so you can spend time on the implementation of the original part of your idea.

If gnome would start to build upon Qt and (some) KDE libraries, they would have more time to spend on innovation, finding new ways of doing things. They still have their own HIG and their own ideas about interfaces and usability - it wouldn't mean Gnome would become KDE or the other way around. It would just result in an accelleration of development for both and more innovation on the Free Desktop.

Something I would love to see.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: you know what sucks?
by twitterfire on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 17:39 in reply to "you know what sucks?"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Anyway, qt is much better than gtk. And real desktops are written in C++. Not in basic, pyton, javascript, C#.

Imagine Windows 7 written in python! Muahahahahah...

KDE 4 is just at beginning right now. It will develop in a fully usable desktop at some point in the future.

I hope that firefox, open office and Gimp will be built with qt instead of gtk.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by google_ninja on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 17:49 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
google_ninja Member since:
2006-02-05

why would the gimp not use gtk (the gimp toolkit)?

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by evangs on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 18:15 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
evangs Member since:
2005-07-07

Anyway, qt is much better than gtk. And real desktops are written in C++. Not in basic, pyton, javascript, C#.


Most desktops are written in C. Windows is predominantly C (see the Win32 API). GNOME is in C. OS X is predominantly Objective-C with some C legacy bits that are being ported over to Objective-C.

There is a lot of C code out there that's still getting developed.

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by ashcrow on Sat 4th Apr 2009 22:37 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
ashcrow Member since:
2008-02-02

Anyway, qt is much better than gtk. And real desktops are written in C++. Not in basic, pyton, javascript, C#.

Imagine Windows 7 written in python! Muahahahahah...

KDE 4 is just at beginning right now. It will develop in a fully usable desktop at some point in the future.

I hope that firefox, open office and Gimp will be built with qt instead of gtk.


Haha. That is a funny joke. We all know real desktops are written in ASM. Can you imagine anything usable in a high level language like C++ or Java?!!?!

.... really man, competition is good between toolkits as well as languages ... and if you don't like high level languages like Python/Ruby or scripting languages like Javascript/Basic then don't use them.

QT is good. GTK is good. Pick the one that does what you need.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by sbergman27 on Sat 4th Apr 2009 22:45 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

KDE 4 is just at beginning right now.

Completely agree. Give it about 5 years and it will have caught up with the requirements of our 2009 desktops. Of course, by then it will be 2014. But hey, KDE is progressing.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: you know what sucks?
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 17:48 in reply to "you know what sucks?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

So what is the sodding argument to re-invent the wheel (*poorly*) again? They could have been finished by now, damnit, and the FOSS desktop would actually be innovative NOW and have a chance against the big boys. But no, they rather waste their time building upon a pile of dogshit.


You are missing one vital point of why Qt simply isn't an option for GNOME, and it probably never will be.

Qt != Gtk+.

As simple as that. GNOME is a Gtk+ environment, and it will most likely always be. Gtk+ probably leaves a lot to be desired from a development point of view, but that only means there's a lot to improve.

KDE and GNOME both have their weak points, and it's up to the competition between the two (and others, of course) to make sure they improve upon their weak points, benefiting the whole of the community. Let;s not forget that KDE 3.x was an extremely messy environment, ten billion million widgets all over the place. KDE 4 is trying hard to fix this - would this have happened in a similar way if GNOME had not been around?

Gtk+ will improve, thanks to the competition with Qt. Your post is just mindless fanboyism that does nobody any real good. If you really want to help the FOSS desktop, as you seem to imply you want, then write Gtk+ bug reports, write a long article detailing the flaws, so that the Gtk+ developers can actually improve their code.

But that's really not what you want, is it? You are just here to proclaim the superiority of Qt (which is most likely accurate), but you're not doing it for the greater good of the FOSS desktop - but only to take cheap shots at the competition.

Really lame.

Edited 2009-04-02 17:49 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by twitterfire on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 18:07 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
twitterfire Member since:
2008-09-11

Why reinvent the wheel, when we have Qt, it works and it is commercially grade allredy?

I don't see the point in improving gtk, if it takes 10 years. Better use something that is allready there and use the work to improve the software, not the toolkit.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by darknexus on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 18:58 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
darknexus Member since:
2008-07-15

What's also sad is that, when an article about GNOME appears, the KDE fanboys have to jump all out of the woodwork and proclaim how much better their favorite environment is. To the KDE zealots: you guys put Apple zealots to shame in your sheer fanaticism, you could really teach them a thing or two. Funny how I don't see a lot of GNOME fanatics jump on the KDE-flaming bandwagon unless provoked by one of you.
As for the changes, I'm not sure what to think. On one hand, I like a lot of GNOME's interface at the moment as it is, but on the other, some of these new ideas really are intriguing. I probably won't end up forming an opinion until I've played with it a bit, I like to have hands-on with a new UI or program before I judge it. I am happy at the removal of obsolete libraries, and hopefully they will also take this chance to really slim down the number of abstraction layers in GNOME itself. They've been moving towards that goal slowly, so I imagine we'll see a much slimmed down GNOME come version 3.0, which would be a very welcome change indeed.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by boudewijn on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 19:00 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

Lame is name calling -- like calling people with a respectable track record like Jos "fanboys". That's not an argument, that's just lame.

In one respect, you are right of course: it's still GTK against Qt -- but that's all there's to it. If it's not gtk/glib based, it won't need to apply.

Technical arguments are moot as long as libraries like akonadi, which was developed to be as cross-platform as anyone could wish, but using Qt, are barred from freedesktop.org.

But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be the right, technically right, design to implement new parts of Gnome using Qt, if there are already good, portable libraries that almost all the heavy lifting.

Reply Parent Score: 9

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by KAMiKAZOW on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 23:53 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

You are missing one vital point of why Qt simply isn't an option for GNOME, and it probably never will be.

Qt != Gtk+.

As simple as that. GNOME is a Gtk+ environment, and it will most likely always be.

Whoa, go back to the last millenium. KDE vs. GNOME is no longer about Qt vs. GTK. The last toolkit barrier fell with Qt 4.5 (GTK style included by default and license change to LGPL).
These days it's mainly about the usability philosophy since GNOME 2.x.
No developer seriously says that GNOME should drop GTK alltogether. However it's absolute perfectly possible to create 100% GNOME HIG conforming applications with Qt. Qt itself is rather small (at least by today's standards). So there's probably no technical reason to not use Qt here and there in GNOME.

There are people who say that GNOME should adopt Plasma. This case it a bit more complicated. It really depends on how much KDE code is really required for Plasma. When many KDE libraries have to be loaded into memory then memory footprint is a technical reason not to use Plasma by default.
Luckily, on an individual level it doesn't matter, because it is possible to use Plasma under GNOME. Thanks to common back-end standards used by both projects, clicking on the Plasma Log-Out buttons brings up the GNOME Log-Out window.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by mbooth9517 on Fri 3rd Apr 2009 05:55 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
mbooth9517 Member since:
2006-07-15

Gnome doesn't have to be GTK, and QT != KDE. There is no doubting that it would be a large effort to rewrite applications for a different framework, but there's not reason not to have a meaningful discussion about doing so.

I think a lot of people would appreciate standardising on one toolkit. For a start, it would give a cleaner environment, it would allow more code to be shared be shared between KDE and GNOME, and it would make lives easier for those who currently try to get their applications to work with both GTK and QT.

It doesn't stop GNOME and KDE still going their separate ways!

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by superstoned on Fri 3rd Apr 2009 11:00 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

I'm not saying Gnome should stop working on what they have, I'm just saying they should be more pragmatic and choose the right tool for the right job. Sharing more low-level functionality between KDE and Gnome would result in more time for both developer teams to work on actual innovation instead of rewriting each others frameworks. If you call that mindless fanboyism - well, sounds a lot like 'blablabla I can't hear you blablabla' with your hands over your ears.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: you know what sucks?
by Hiev on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 17:48 in reply to "you know what sucks?"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

So what is the sodding argument to re-invent the wheel (*poorly*) again? They could have been finished by now, damnit, and the FOSS desktop would actually be innovative NOW and have a chance against the big boys. But no, they rather waste their time building upon a pile of dogshit.

You know, one of the reasons I don't use KDE at all its for the arrogant mentality of its members, and you do not contribute to it, Don't like GNOME, find don't post in GNOME related topics, I and Im sure many more and sick and tired of your trolling here.

You are always asking for construstive critics for KDE, do the same for GNOME or don't post at all.

Edited 2009-04-02 17:50 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 6

RE[2]: you know what sucks?
by KAMiKAZOW on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 23:33 in reply to "RE: you know what sucks?"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

one of the reasons I don't use KDE at all its for the arrogant mentality of its members

Cut the crap. Until I even reached this thread, I've already read about the "disaster KDE 4", the superiour incremental GNOME development model, etc. several times within these comments.
No much for arrogant mentality of only the KDE users.....

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE: you know what sucks?
by Richard Dale on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 18:14 in reply to "you know what sucks?"
Richard Dale Member since:
2005-07-22

You know what is sad? Reading the page http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Features you can only conclude there is some great potential there. Then moving on, you see they created some gross hacks and are building it all from scratch. While there is a fully free, LGPL framework out there, which has been in development for over 2 years now, and is build to do specifically this: recreate the desktop experience in a new way. Sure, it's KDE technology, but who cares? They can work with it in javascript, python, ruby, C# or a mix of those - so it can't be the C++ they hate.


The Plasma scripting api used for writing javascript, python, ruby and c# plasmoids is not the same as the C++ api that is used to develop the heavyweight plasmoids such as the task manager. There are quite a few things that you can do in C++ that you can't do in those languages, and conversely you can't download and run C++ plasmoids from the internet like you can with the scripting ones.

That is a deliberate design decision, but I think the Gnome shell approach of using a GObject-Introspection based JavaScript binding as the primary implementation language is interestingly different to the Plasma's approach of using C++ as a foundation.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: you know what sucks?
by KAMiKAZOW on Thu 2nd Apr 2009 23:28 in reply to "you know what sucks?"
KAMiKAZOW Member since:
2005-07-06

PPL with excellent ideas and design capabilities choosing crappy technology for political reasons

No, it's not a political reason. It's a personal reason -- "too large ego" / "not invented here". Just like the Konqueror developers who refuse to adopt QtWebKit and instead stick to KHTML until the bitter end.

A political reason would be "I don't use this software, because its license is not free and I support democracy and freedom".

There are LOTS of cool, cooperative people in both projects. They are the people who cooperate within FreeDesktop.org, work on shared back-end technologies like dbus, and jointly organize the Gran Canaria Desktop Summit (Akademy+GUADEC) this summer.
Those people know that the main difference between GNOME and KDE is the HIG philosophy, but that GNOME and KDE have the same political (!) goal: Freedom for the computer desktop.

Reply Parent Score: 4