Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 5th Apr 2009 10:27 UTC
Windows Microsoft's "You find it, you keep it" campaign, which directly attacks Apple, has seen another instalment. The first one, with Lauren criticising Apple for its pricing policy and lack of choice, was met with mixed reviews, and I'm sure the second one will not be received any differently. Giampaolo disses Apple for a lack of power and being all about aesthetics.
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RE: What idiots
by mono on Sun 5th Apr 2009 11:29 UTC in reply to "What idiots"
mono
Member since:
2005-10-19

fixing up the deficiencies in your operating system.


What deficiencies? Usually people on the internet just writing this FUD without proving or giving points.

Give me an operating system based on FreeBSD core with a nice GUI along the lines of AmigaOS GUI


Not everybody thinks that the BSD core is the ultimate solution when it comes to operating systems. Windows NT core is as good as anything else. In fact it would be stupid to have only unix-like systems in the world.

throw ontop drag and drop software installations, a webkit based web browser and a realisation that I don't need to be told every five seconds via 'bubbles' that I've done something


Drag and drop software installation? ;) Sorry but it's not a solution. Show me one Apple software which comes without an installer... Not even Apple thinks that drag and drop is not lame. In my opinion it's much more complicated to open a disk image then open Applications and drag the icon there then create a shortcut on the dock.
As for the bubbles: i don't know what you're talking about, i don't see any bubbles. Maybe every 5 days in average but not every 5 seconds... Please be more precise

Reply Parent Score: 2

v RE[2]: What idiots
by GODhack on Sun 5th Apr 2009 11:41 in reply to "RE: What idiots"
RE[2]: What idiots
by christianhgross on Sun 5th Apr 2009 11:53 in reply to "RE: What idiots"
christianhgross Member since:
2005-11-15

>Not everybody thinks that the BSD core is the ultimate solution when it comes to operating systems. Windows NT core is as good as anything else. In fact it would be stupid to have only unix-like systems in the world.

No its not actually. Here is the thing, and I was with NT from the beginning. The original premise of NT was superb. In fact it was a REAL cutting edge kernel that could hold its own. But then around NT 3.51 they bastardized the kernel when they moved GDI into kernel space. At that point NT became an overbloated operating system.

Microsoft does have the ability to make NT go back to its roots, but they don't want to for fear of what may happen.

So why did they leave their roots? Performance. Though I doubt today with how graphic processors work it would be a problem.

>Drag and drop software installation? ;) Sorry but it's not a solution.

Sorry but that is a solution. I hate Windows installers because users get it wrong all the time. What happens is that you give them a link to download and install.

They uninstall all right, but then they install the same old installer. Yes you can change the name or what have you, but they get it wrong quite often. It sounds stupid, but that is reality. So I will be providing support for an old version of the software and wonder what is going on.

Then on top of that the problem is that the files on a windows system are scattered all over the place. When my clients move from one machine to another they expect all of their settings to magically move with them from the installer.

My solution these days is to use subversion, and fixed location installations. It works like a charm! User's always have working systems, etc... They can mirror their application save it to the version control system and move back to old systems.

BTW I write Excel based trading systems that use my platform called HippoTrader.

I make my money with Excel and Windows, but Vista and the later editions of Windows are crap!

Reply Parent Score: 0

RE[3]: What idiots
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 5th Apr 2009 12:06 in reply to "RE[2]: What idiots"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

But then around NT 3.51 they bastardized the kernel when they moved GDI into kernel space. At that point NT became an overbloated operating system.


It's actually a little bit different. The decision to move something like GDI into the kernel might be debatable, but the fact that you actually CAN do it is a testament to the flexibility and clean design of the NT kernel and its tools.

NT is not "bloated". NT is perfectly fine the way it is, and is probably a lot more advanced than what the competition has to offer (on the lower levels, that is). The userland is what sometimes makes Windows so dreadful, but with Windows 7 its seems like they're finally addressing that properly.

People claiming that Microsoft needs to use another kernel (like a BSD one) have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Yes let's replace one of the world's most stable, advanced kernels+tools for something as archaic in design as UNIX.

Edited 2009-04-05 12:07 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: What idiots
by BluenoseJake on Sun 5th Apr 2009 12:55 in reply to "RE[2]: What idiots"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

No its not actually. Here is the thing, and I was with NT from the beginning. The original premise of NT was superb. In fact it was a REAL cutting edge kernel that could hold its own. But then around NT 3.51 they bastardized the kernel when they moved GDI into kernel space. At that point NT became an overbloated operating system.


uh, they moved it back out into userland for Vista, oh and they moved the audio into userspace as well, so I guess I don't have to read any farther.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: What idiots
by kaiwai on Sun 5th Apr 2009 12:38 in reply to "RE: What idiots"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

What deficiencies? Usually people on the internet just writing this FUD without proving or giving points.


The GUI - every part of it. Replace it. Compare how easy to use and pleasant Mac OS X is compared to Windows. I'm not saying copy it; I'm saying - well yes, I am saying copy it by buying out AmigaOS and plonking that UI on top.

Not everybody thinks that the BSD core is the ultimate solution when it comes to operating systems. Windows NT core is as good as anything else. In fact it would be stupid to have only unix-like systems in the world.


Considering that Windows NT is still saddled with 20 years worth of legacy such as drive letters, dll's littered left right and centre, the registry and numerous other stupid ideas - It would be a big improvement not to have the NT core or anything relating to NT.

Drag and drop software installation? ;) Sorry but it's not a solution. Show me one Apple software which comes without an installer... Not even Apple thinks that drag and drop is not lame. In my opinion it's much more complicated to open a disk image then open Applications and drag the icon there then create a shortcut on the dock.
As for the bubbles: i don't know what you're talking about, i don't see any bubbles. Maybe every 5 days in average but not every 5 seconds... Please be more precise


Obviously you don't attach devices or use your computer much.

Who cares what Apple does; all the installers use a common installation routine (except for Adobe - but they'd screw up anything on any platform) anyway; compare that to the mess in the Windows world - dlls sprayed left right and centre, over righting files in the windows directory, crap being left in the registry etc. Its a friggin joke.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[3]: What idiots
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 5th Apr 2009 12:45 in reply to "RE[2]: What idiots"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Bundles are indeed the superior solution. Too bad Apple implemented it very, very badly.

1) Settings files are created outside of the bundle, and they are not linked to one another. As such, if you delete a bundle, it leaves a trail of files all over the place. You need 3rd party tools like App Zapper to really remove an application. Bad.

2) Stupid nonsense with .dmg files. Just put the bundle online. We are living in the broadband age, putting stuff in .dmg files makes no sense whatsoever. Just adds annoying steps that serve no purpose.

3) Apple itself still uses installers (without an uninstall option!) and packages (without an uninstall option!) that totally disregard the bundle premise, littering the entire system with files all over the place.

4) No central updating mechanism.

Bundles = good, Apple's implementaton = bad.

Edited 2009-04-05 12:46 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 8

RE[3]: What idiots
by DrillSgt on Sun 5th Apr 2009 16:41 in reply to "RE[2]: What idiots"
DrillSgt Member since:
2005-12-02

"The GUI - every part of it. Replace it. Compare how easy to use and pleasant Mac OS X is compared to Windows."

This is all a personal thing. Personally I find OS X to be non-intuitive and hard to use. I mean, why should I have to go into the Finder, which is a lower feature version of Explorer, and hunt for apps? If that is a pleasure to use, then it is all yours.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[3]: What idiots
by Drumhellar on Sun 5th Apr 2009 17:17 in reply to "RE[2]: What idiots"
Drumhellar Member since:
2005-07-12

The GUI - every part of it. Replace it. Compare how easy to use and pleasant Mac OS X is compared to Windows. I'm not saying copy it; I'm saying - well yes, I am saying copy it by buying out AmigaOS and plonking that UI on top.


How much usability testing did Amiga do on their OS? I've only used it in an emulator. It seems really old and antiquated, but maybe because it is. Microsoft has actually spent cash on usability testing to determine what works and what doesn't.

Considering that Windows NT is still saddled with 20 years worth of legacy such as drive letters, dll's littered left right and centre, the registry and numerous other stupid ideas - It would be a big improvement not to have the NT core or anything relating to NT.


Some of that legacy is to support old apps that use undocumented features that shouldn't have been used.

Drive letters are a userspace thing, again, to support the long-standing use. Volumes can be mounted anywhere below C:\ in any directory.

DLLS's don't scatter everywhere anymore. The windows directory is write-protected, and apps that are developed properly put their dll's in their own dir, unless they are shared across many apps, then there is a specific directory under c:\program files\ for that.

The registry is old, but wasn't it deprecated with vista? Maybe not, but each user has his own app settings folder, and there is a seperate program settings folder available for registry-type use, but without using the registry.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: What idiots
by MysterMask on Sun 5th Apr 2009 13:03 in reply to "RE: What idiots"
MysterMask Member since:
2005-07-12

What deficiencies? Usually people on the internet just writing this FUD without proving or giving points.


Mega *LOL*
Your comment is really funny. So Windows has only one problem: FUD on the internet. Of course Windows itself is perfect - its just the users that are a little bit limited!

*Bruhahahahaha*

(Go to O'Reilly's website and search for books about 'annoyances'. *Hm* - I wonder why the term 'Windows' appears so often in the search results ..)


Windows NT core is as good as anything else.


Yeah, especially when the OS almost goes to its knees when you put in a CD with a few scratches and things like that ..

Sorry, the product speaks for itself and what it says is quite the opposite of your opinion ..

(Ever wondered why they never managed to bring their "all new and better" Vista to the netbook world or why the OS was inflexible enough to run decent under low resource conditions, while you find Linux kernels on almost every device and Apple ported OSX to the iPhone's in less than half the time Microsoft needed to produce something lame like Vista?)
*Nah* Good modular system design is not done in Redmond. That's way Windows server starts more and more to ape clean and simple *nix systems architecture.

In fact it would be stupid to have only unix-like systems in the world.


Wouldn't it be equally stupid to have only Windows-like systems?
And still Redmond is trying to reach exactly that with their "we don't care for standards we didn't bought ourselves" politics.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[3]: What idiots
by mono on Sun 5th Apr 2009 13:39 in reply to "RE[2]: What idiots"
mono Member since:
2005-10-19

Your comment is really funny. So Windows has only one problem: FUD on the internet. Of course Windows itself is perfect - its just the users that are a little bit limited!


You should concentrate on what you would like to express with your words not trying to fight others. You can't deny that it's just plain FUD. There are no reasons, no descriptions just that Windows is bad.

Yeah, especially when the OS almost goes to its knees when you put in a CD with a few scratches and things like that...


At my workplace I work on macs. I always have more problems with them than pcs. Mac OS X is not better in any way so it's totally pointless to make bold statements. For intance last time I was scanning something at work then this happened: http://kukacosalma.buzz.hu/files/macosx.png
Then a few weeks ago i got a new wd passport usb hdd and I had to connect it to the mac. Mac OS X had a kernel panic instantly i connected the drive. Can you show me another operating system which freezes when you connect a usb device?

And then there is Transmission, the btclient. I've never seen anything like that on any other system that an application which doesn't use any additional drivers/kernel extensions can hang the whole system without being able to do ANYTHING just moving around the beach ball of death.

Let alone the fact that Apple engineers were pissing on security as we've read after every pwn2own contest...

You know that's why I know that it's bullshit what you're talking about. Because i experienced for years that OS X is not better at all. Not even from a usability point of view.

Reply Parent Score: 1